LW jabo...a new idea

[Karnak]

The best ground attack aircraft that the Luftwaffe fans in AH can get is the Me410.  If it still doesn't do what they need it to, tough, there isn't anything better and they need to curse at the WWII Germans for not building a decent ground attack aircraft.

Bring the Me410(whatever version) to AH.

[buscaglia]

mmm nope, you are wrong.

 There were several better LW rides for ground attack.

Here a list of such rides with characteristics that made em way preferable to me410 in the ground attack role.

1) Henschel Hs 129: Hs 129
- sturdy radial engines
- carried good and flexible offensive armament: 20mm, 30mm ,37mm, 75mm cannons
- In late war was equiped with what was probably the most lethal antitank gun ever used in ww2*
- Only known drawback: engine problems with dust--> problems operating from non-concrete airfields and in N.Africa)

2) Me110 D3 Zerostorer:me110
- less prone to engine fire and engine failures
- Superior structural robustness: especially  rear part of fuselage, having a larger section and more weight;
- Better armored: Me110d3 was specifically produced for Zerstorer role, thus having dedicated armor plates to protect engines and crew (rear and belly armor plates).  
- superior gunner aiming precision and improved defensive armament (2x7.9mm)
- Much more versatile aircraft (->good for the developement of other subversions, way more usefull also for scenarios and teather arenas)

3) Ta154 Moskito:Ta 154  Moskito
- the Mosquito of the Luftwaffe
- extremely fast and with good offensive armament
- only drawback: few were built before allied raids destroyed the industrial resources that were necessary for its production.

* Late war guns in hs129:
 Battery of six 75mm smoothbore recoiless rifles that fired downawrds and to the rear. This system was fired by an automatic magnetic trigger that fired when the aircraft flew over metal objects. This system was reported to be quite successful.
Operative use of this weapon: anti-tank, anti-shipping, anti-railway (it resulted particularly effective in this role , several succesfull missions were carried in the eastern front against: locomotives and trains, railroads and marshalling yards) .

[ 09-04-2001: Message edited by: buscaglia ]

[ 09-04-2001: Message edited by: buscaglia ]

[R4M]

absolutely in disagree busc.


1) Henschel Hs 129:
- sturdy radial engines
- carried good and flexible offensive armament: 20mm, 30mm ,37mm, 75mm cannons
- In late war was equiped with what was probably the most lethal antitank gun ever used in ww2*
- Only known drawback: engine problems with dust--> problems operating from non-concrete airfields and in N.Africa)


-Slow as a pig
-Can carry no bombs
-Climbs like a pregnant elephant.
-extraordinary heavy (with the 75mm had a hard time taking off)
-Has just ONE role: tank hunting. And even a Ju87G would be faster,and more nimble than a HS129. And the Ju carried 2x37mm, while the HS could just carry ONE 37mm.


2) Me110 D3 Zerostorer_:
- less prone to engine fire and engine failures
- Superior structural robustness: especially  rear part of fuselage, having a larger section and more weight;
- Better armored: Me110d3 was specifically produced for Zerstorer role, thus having dedicated armor plates to protect engines and crew (rear and belly armor plates).  
- superior gunner aiming precision and improved defensive armament (2x7.9mm)
- Much more versatile aircraft (->good for the developement of other subversions, way more usefull also for scenarios and teather arenas)

-Me410 was not a lightweight structurally anyway, and I will change the fire hazard for the extra speed, any day.

-Armor in AH does not matter too much anyway. I change that armor for the best climbrate, accelration and speed of the Me410 anyday, too.

-two 7.92mm guns, even if they are laser guided, aren't going to force anyone out of your six. if you dont believe me, take a Ju88 and see if the bandits have any problem coming from your low or high 6. I will change the accuracy of the 7.92mm for the hit power and WIDER fire arc of the 13mm battery of the 410.

-More versatile? than a Me410?. the 410 can be a wonderful buff hunter, a great jabo ride, and quite maneouverable for its size. And it has WAY more weapon configurations WITHOUT HAVING TO MODEL A DIFFERENT VERSION OF THE PLANE.


3) Ta154 Moskito:
- the Mosquito of the Luftwaffe
- extremely fast and with good offensive armament
- only drawback: few were built before allied raids destroyed the industrial resources that were necessary for its production.

-never operational. Just preproduction units flew operationally. And it was a night fighter, not a Jabo.

Sorry I still think that the "mosquito of the Luftwaffe" was the ME410. And it looked much cooler  .

I would like the weapons of the 190F8 modelled, before any new jabo, anyway.

[buscaglia]

Mmmm dunno..

I agree about Moskito.
 
But surely i dont subscribe your funny description of HS129, i think it was a good aircraft. in North Africa, where it suffered of several engine failures and was retired, lacking a relyable dust filter. That was the only contact the western allies had with it and it is there and then that it earned its bad reputation.Also the N. African one was its first version with underpowered argus engines. The second version, that was estensively used on the eastern front, had more powerfull and relyable engines, it was slow, true, but once on target was pure death, also it had a decent defensive armament and its pilots like it because "It was almost as sturdy as  Sturmoviks".
Do we really need another detuned mossie or p38, carrying bombs and vulchin for long?
I am not sure...

Immagine it in the antishipping role or against tanks, would be great fun....

My source is:"Sparehead for the luftwaffe, Luftwaffe operations in support of the army 1939-1945". A study done by Generak der flieger Paul Deichman. A collection of studies and memories of former key officials of the Luftwaffe for the US air force historical division. In this book the hs129 is described just like u said about the first version, but great things are said about its use one the eastern front in 1943-44.


About me110...what to say 2 7.99 is true...Still me410 guns sucked and would be difficult to model that in AH...o we would either have a porked 12mm causing tons of everyday whining or an uber twin heavy machine gun wich historically was crap...

But the main reason why i like it is cuz it would be great for scenarios and would be easy to do many different 110s (bob,reich defence, night fighter w/Smusic gun...)

[hazed-]

id agree with you buscaglia if we got the me110 in several versions but thats so far off it wouldnt really count.
As it is i think the LW will get one jabo type and id suspect HTC want the most famous type ie the stuka.followed maybe much later by me110 then other types.

my personal choice would be the me110 because i liked th look of it.
But LW need a later version ground attack BADLY and to be honest the Me410 fits the bill best.
the barbet guns could be modeled like the b17 nose/waste guns   they seem to rotate way past their historical max deflection.you often see them poking out at odd angles so im sure the me410 guns wouldnt be that hard to model.just have a aiming tube to look at and match the guns to the centre of the tube   like an empty rear gun on a bomber with the waste guns able to swing round and fire  

we need a faster aircraft than the ju88 for dropping ord.the 190f8 is fine but has a loadout that is pretty much worse than a 190a8 with 30mm.I like to use 190a8 for fighter in its anti buff role, the 190a5 in the anti fighter role and id like to use f8 in jabo role but its loadout is not as effective for me as the 190a8.
LW are stuck between inadequate 190f8 and the obsolete ju88a4.The Me410 would fill that gap for jabo + it has history of anti buff attacks too which we can explore(more fun stuff to try)
Dont get me wrong i love 190 jabos and i use them a lot but i have to use combined attacks with squaddies etc to kill enough hangers etc.
Allies with 1 aircraft can kill the VH and all the ack (if ya good enough) and still have ordinance left over which makes for a perfect jabo aircraft.The me410 wont be perfect but it will mean that we could kill a VH and ack and still have the ability to kill gv's etc.If the me110 doesnt carry enough ordinance for that sort of role it will not fill the role  LW need.

choices are:

me110: great for historic stuff (BOB scenarios) not a bad  aircraft but weak in defence.seen them before in other sims but well liked.if given earlier version it will be another ju88!

me410: faster version of me110 really but with good ordinance loadout and some great gun packages.BK5 for one thing!!! unusual for a flight sim too  -has role as jabo and bomber destroyer-unusual and rare for sims(ever seen one in a sim? i havent)

190f8: with added ordinance options.a great stop gap to satisfy our need for that extra gv killing power.(i was thinking the 2x250kg wing 1x500kg central loadout and any extra gun loadouts if there was any)

stuka: great ordinance load for single engined plane-a well liked aircraft by customers(?)-absolutely a sitting duck in MA-
so ordinance may never get to target!  
looks cool though

ju88: a newer version/mark so it improves as a bomber for MA.wont cause as much interest as a new plane would- but improved speed (if its enough) will help in MA immensely.

[buscaglia]

I d really love gettin 110&stuka too, about Me410: i am still undecided, btw, u surely raised some good points   ...
Only 1 thing....
 

the barbet guns could be modeled like the b17 nose/waste guns  they seem to rotate way past their historical max deflection.

...Heheh well, lets say this in other words: "considering that AH already have some planes that are modelled arcadish not reflecting the actual historical aircraft...lets do another arcadish un-historical aircraft!"   .

Still, u vent say nothin about Hs129.....Dont u like it...immmagine:
- "hi 190s flight, here's hs129 flight, hows the situation the target?We re ib, ETO: 2 minutes"
- "We kilt acks and vulchin but VH is still up and two ostwinds have spawned..."
- "vv, no problem, we are carrying the 75mm gun...ok, i ve them on sight, 3k away....2k, firing."
KAAAAAABOOOM KAAAAAAABOM KAAAAAABOM KAAAABOM

- "ok, GVs are gone, VH is down..keep vulhin we go for hangars.."
KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAA  BOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM,KAAABOM.

- "Henshkel flight here, field is flat, we're rtb..Bring in the goons, we rtb"


Yeah, Rudell's late stuka should be nice as well....But 75mm gun is another thing..

[ 09-05-2001: Message edited by: buscaglia ]

[SKurj]

ar340...


SKurj

[Karnak]

Busc,

You're imagined attack on that base is fanciful in the context of AH.

Have you ever tried to kill a hanger with a Panzer?  Other than the VH, it takes most of its ammo load to kill a single hanger. The Hs129 won't have anything like the Panzer's ammo load.

The probelm with the Hs129 is that is is very slow, underpowered, has no way to protect itself and is useless against anything other than light targets.

Hunting Hs129s would be like hunting C-47s.

[MadBirdCZ]

Heey! Bring it on! I like hunting C47s !  

[buscaglia]

really ? I didnt know, i dont drve tanks a lot cause i suck in em...But, well, what the..Why?????!?!?!?**!?????

I mean, I dont know a lot about tank cannons...But common sense tells me that shouldnt be like this...it should take 3, 4  75mm rounds to kill an hangar...

Am I wrong?

Anyway...generally: arent u tank drivers angry? ..it takes so long to get to an enemy airfields (especially in some maps) and when u get there u can either:
- get detracked by an uber m16
- get destroyed by a: chog,il2,yak9u dweeb
- waste all ammo to kill just a couple of hangers

Are tanks correctly modeled? Were so difficult to kill a lil bunker   ?
And if yes, were 1000 lbs eggs so much better than tank stin?

[DingHao2]

Wouldn't most of the arguments against the HS-129 also apply to the Il-2?  poor climb, lesser powered guns, low ordinance, poor speed, poor turning...doesn't the Il-2 perform fine in AH?

[Karnak]

Ding,

An Il-2 will out run, out climb, out accelerate, out dive and out turn an Hs129 all the while carrying bombs and rockets (which the Hs129 cannot) and having thicker armor and a tail gun.

Some of that may be exageration, but most is not.  The Hs129 doesn't hold a candle to the Il-2 in capabilities.

I'm not saying don't model the Hs129, I'm just saying that the Hs129 isn't the ground attack aircraft the Luftwaffe fans are looking for.