Would like some 109 training

[moot]

So the G14's flight envelope isn't just a K4's with equal amounts of torque and power substracted? 

[Agent360]

Wrong on both accounts.  I have plenty of time in the K4...more than I do the G14.  I am not saying one is better than the other by any means...just that in my opinion, below 10k, they are more than comparable...given equal pilots, it will come down to their choices, not the performance of the plane because they that close in performance.

The one area I do like the speed of the K4 over the G14 is chasing down runners to force a fight.

LOL...just messing with you bud....hence the slinging beer around and acting tuff.

I hear ya about the g14. I suppose its preferance. But for me I can't get anywhere near the same performace out of a G14 at low and slow than I can in the K4

[killnu]

Just change tactics a bit...it works wonderfully low and slow as well. 

I am not taking it serious by any means...

[jdbecks]

I take the G14 out more than the k4, as Im not to great with the 30mm. At first the G14 felt quite sluggish and unresponsive compared to the k4, but once I got use to it..I really enjoy it, But I find I go out with the gondalas quite alot, as they are fantastic for snapshots..that the single 20mm just dont seem to do the job.

[Yenny]

xD i hate the 30mm so much, rather take a G14 w/ 20mm over 30mm any day =)

[boomerlu]

xD i hate the 30mm so much, rather take a G14 w/ 20mm over 30mm any day =)

Same, I really wish the K4 would have a 20mm option.

As it stands, I typically fly the G14 in an E-fighter role, staying fast, using the vertical a lot, and staying near corner velocity on my attack runs. The top end 109s are phenomenal at staying near corner velocity if you know how to handle them.

[Madkow]

xD i hate the 30mm so much, rather take a G14 w/ 20mm over 30mm any day =)

Really? I had 510 kills in the k4 this tour. Don't think I can find a
reason to fly another plane. Just set the tater to 175 and you can't miss.

[boomerlu]

Really? I had 510 kills in the k4 this tour. Don't think I can find a
reason to fly another plane. Just set the tater to 175 and you can't miss.

I have my convergence set around there. The thing is, I take a lot of high deflection shots, whether they are tracking or snapshots. I rarely use the 30mm on these types of shots - feels like a waste of ammo with such a low probability of hit.

Perhaps I am being a bit gun shy with it? Then again, it's only 65 rounds...

[moot]

Just use the force.. Don't consciously decide when to shoot.  Just shoot when it feels right and move on to the next shot.  Keep it an intuitive learning experience and you'll make progress, slowly but surely.  You should only need to fire 1-3 rounds at a time.

[Anaxogoras]

Just use the force.. Don't consciously decide when to shoot.  Just shoot when it feels right and move on to the next shot.  Keep it an intuitive learning experience and you'll make progress, slowly but surely.  You should only need to fire 1-3 rounds at a time.

Yes, that's good advice.  You have to be in a non-reflective state of mind, yet maintaining complete awareness, to fire the 30mm effectively.

Still, even though I agree that the 30mm is an effective weapon, it is a far less flexible for engaging fighters than the 20mm.

[moot]

You only need glancing snapshots with the 30mm... You can't do that with the 20mm.  The 30mm allows you to keep your lines really smooth and E-efficient.  You only need to intersect the target for long enough to shoot a couple of rounds.  What you lose in flexibility of gunnery, you gain in ACM flexibility.  I can easily say that flying the 152 has made my gunnery suffer.. What I've gotten used to is to let the ACM do all the work, and then just fire 2 rounds of 30 on an easy target (close and/or relatively still) for a kill.

[boomerlu]

You only need glancing snapshots with the 30mm... You can't do that with the 20mm.  The 30mm allows you to keep your lines really smooth and E-efficient.  You only need to intersect the target for long enough to shoot a couple of rounds.  What you lose in flexibility of gunnery, you gain in ACM flexibility.  I can easily say that flying the 152 has made my gunnery suffer.. What I've gotten used to is to let the ACM do all the work, and then just fire 2 rounds of 30 on an easy target (close and/or relatively still) for a kill.

Interesting. Yes, that is generally the type of shot I take with the 30mm - target is slow and I've got a 50-100 mph E advantage swooping down (or up - the climbing target is pretty easy too).

However, with this style, I feel like you get stuck either
1) Cherry picking
2) Waiting for your opponent to make a mistake like trying to climb Co-E with you
3) Flying a long ACM engagement waiting for your target to blow his E while you similarly get into a situation that's hard to fly away from. I've gotten into engagements where I get on my opponent's tail for 30+ seconds while he violently maneuvers and I follow him, but can't get the kill because taters aren't landing.

(Note: while I feel picking is certainly legitimate, I'd like to have a reasonable chance at ending a direct-confrontation quickly WITHOUT relying on my opponent doing something dumb)

Any advice given my concerns?

Separate question: would you advise taking medium or medium-high speed (speed referring to target speed) snapshots with the 30mm?

All in all, it's an interesting compromise - less flexibility in gunnery for better ACM. Seems great for 1v1, not so good for complex multi-plane engagements.

[boomerlu]

Just use the force.. Don't consciously decide when to shoot.  Just shoot when it feels right and move on to the next shot.  Keep it an intuitive learning experience and you'll make progress, slowly but surely.  You should only need to fire 1-3 rounds at a time.

CC. That's why I fly tracers off.

I find my firing instinct is far better than any attempt at "scientifically" determining where I should shoot by using tracers.

[moot]

Well.. In my experience it's great for both 1v1 and multi engagements.  Maybe better for the latter, because you just dispatch each one of em with one shot.  And 1v1 suffers in the sense that the fight's over at first gun contact.  YMMV

All speeds snapshots work with the 30mm.  They're different animals (high speed is, mostly), but there's no reason I can think of to favor or disfavor any of them except for very high speed shots where the 30mm has a lot of trouble making its way thru the air, to the target.

What you want to do in 3) is relax and let the shot appear to you on its own.  In any but the very best stick continuous evasive/stick stirring, there'll repeatedly be a moment where the target is at its maximum lateral movement across your windshield.  Most of the time this means they're also showing their largest target profile.  You want to sync yourself (ACM wise) to that rhythm (to varying degrees of commitment/risk of overshooting, depending on how soon you plan to connect the shot) and just let your hand pull the trigger at the right moment.

I have a couple of films illustrating a couple of different ways to do all the above in this thread.. 
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,264033.0.html
It's not done with a 109, so the exact ACM doesn't perfectly apply, but the gunnery is pretty similar.  The biggest difference is the 152's much more important rudder authority. If you have any other kinds of situations you'd like to see, just let me know.

[boomerlu]

Well.. In my experience it's great for both 1v1 and multi engagements.  Maybe better for the latter, because you just dispatch each one of em with one shot.  And 1v1 suffers in the sense that the fight's over at first gun contact.  YMMV

Seems like I just need more work on my gunnery then. More practice with that instinctive feel on when to let a tater fly.

All speeds snapshots work with the 30mm.  They're different animals (high speed is, mostly), but there's no reason I can think of to favor or disfavor any of them.

Limited ammo and reduced accuracy as compared to 20mms. I feel like I can ill afford to waste the rounds on a 1-2s second crossing shot. This is more specific to the 109, the 152 has about 50% more ammo and thus firing time with its tater.

What you want to do in 3) is relax and let the shot appear to you on its own.  In any but the very best stick continuous evasive/stick stirring, there'll repeatedly be a moment where the target is at its maximum lateral movement across your windshield.  Most of the time this means they're also showing their largest target profile.  You want to sync yourself (ACM wise) to that rhythm (to varying degrees of commitment/risk of overshooting, depending on how soon you plan to connect the shot) and just let your hand pull the trigger at the right moment.

I know EXACTLY what you're talking about on this. For example, if the target starts a scissors, they will pass in front of your guns and with a well timed shot, you can end the fight right there. Of course, the risk of taking the shot is that you overshoot. I'm fairly good with these shots.

I have a couple of films illustrating a couple of different ways to do all the above in this thread.. 
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,264033.0.html
It's not done with a 109, so the exact ACM doesn't perfectly apply, but the gunnery is pretty similar.  The biggest difference is the 152's much more important rudder authority. If you have any other kinds of situations you'd like to see, just let me know.

Wow you are a good shot. That typhie kill at the end ... I probably would not have even considered lobbing taters.

OK!! Kind of my question through all of this (though I didn't ask explicitly) really has been along the lines of:
The 30mm IS harder to use than 20s. Given that, can enough practice with the gunnery make up for the difference?
Subquestion: is there any "magic trick" that you use to get the rounds to land?

It seems like the answer to the first question is "YES most definitely" and the answer to the subquestion is "no", meaning I just need more practice. Ok... offline drone time.