The FW190D9, my new favourite long endurance fighter!

[morfiend]

 

[moot]

Ok, here's what I found using the Badboy standard.



So the A8 turns as well clean as the D-9 does with 1 notch.  Even without flaps it's already behind.  Add flaps and you're in trouble.

[Krusty]

I think Gonzo's page uses the 4x20mm gun package. Firing time will be the same (outboard guns run dry inside the same period) but the "lethality' is noticably higher for whatever reason.

Even so, it's still hundreds of pounds lighter hehe

[moot]

2x13+4x20 is only slightly less lethal than 2x20+30?
 
It is.  D9 and F8 have same lethality, A8 has more.  Anyway, it doesn't matter.  The practical data is above.  The A8 is negligibly different than the D-9 in sustained turns. Back to square one. The only good qualities it has are firepower and roll rate.

[BaldEagl]

BaldEagl all time K/D (fighter/fighter-attack):

Tempest
Fw 190A-5
Bf 109K-4
P-47N
Fw 190A-8

BaldEagl all time kills (fighter/fighter-attack):

Spit Mk XVI
Spit Mk IX
Fw 190A-8
F6F-5
Bf109K-4

Notice only two planes make both lists but you've convinced me... the A8 totally sucks and I'm going to quit flying it... but I did tell you it will out-turn a Dora.

In fact, by the earlier post with turn radii, I'm surprised HT even put the 190 family (including the Ta-152) in the game.  I think that all the 190's, P-38's and Jugs should be permanently disabled along with a few of the outdated EW planes as well.  I mean the Ju-87 and D3A are hardly competitive and who wants to fly a F4F-4?

I'm not exactly sure what it is you're trying to prove here.  That any less than uber plane should not be flown?

I'm done with this thread.

Sorry for the hijack Kazaa.  Fly the Dora and have fun.

EDIT

2x13+4x20 is only slightly less lethal than 2x20+30?
 
It is.  D9 and F8 have same lethality, A8 has more.  Anyway, it doesn't matter.  The practical data is above.  The A8 is negligibly different than the D-9 in sustained turns. Back to square one. The only good qualities it has are firepower and roll rate.

You couldn't even bring yourself to say negligably better.     Proof of a witchunt of sorts.

[moot]

You realize it's hard for me to say anything but what things look like at face value?
1) The A-8 is a brick.  The envelope is easily one of the worst in the whole game, and the only potential mitigators are roll rate and firepower.
2) Insisting I'm interested in convincing you of anything is strange.  The only thing I'm arguing are inarguable stuff like paper numbers and practical figures.  Nothing arguable and nothing to do with taste.
3) Because taste and hard numbers are totally independent, I or anyone else can also come up with some stats showing how they better acclimatize to and exploit some particular planes, and skew data that way. 

The A-8 is one of the worst planes in the game.  It's excessively handicapped by its flight envelope.  That's what I'm saying.  Whether you or someone else likes it or not has nothing to do with it.  I mean.. Imagine if I wrote a wiki article and let that kinda bias into it.  "The A-8 is an overall mediocre dogfighter in the MA environment, but since one player likes it, it behooves the reader to turn a blind eye to these concrete facts."

[moot]

You couldn't even bring yourself to say negligably better.     Proof of a witchunt of sorts.

Because I'm looking at the whole picture.  One of the places you said the A8 was better than the D9 isn't.  Roll rate is marginally better.  Firepower is meaningless if it's unusable.

Let me add one more thing that's off topic but might ease the apparent pain for you.  The 152 is a terrible plane. Ask Urchin's opinion on it. It's overweight and has almost none of the attributes that 190s depend on.  The Spit16 could arguably be as much or more of a 190 than the 152.  It does have some saving graces and they fortunately for me happen to match my flying almost perfectly, so that despite the blood-boiling faults it's still a model you (I) can extract excellent performance from.  It's a tiny margin but thanks to my taste for its overall package, I have the patience for it.  Here are a couple of points to be made:
1) That I like it means nothing for
1a) Whether anyone else will like it
1b) Whether it's a good plane in general
1c) How competitive it is when you fly it to its best and how difficult it is to extract that last 10% from it
2) I have no problem admitting these; but in an objective assessment the 152 does in fact come above the A-8 in pretty much any metric except roll rate, and 1 times out of 3 in firepower with the 30mm A8 loadout.  Even though the 152 is a miserable ride for what's supposed to be a '45 design, it's still way better than the A-8.

I didn't mention that last point anywhere in my assessment till you brought it up. And why would I - It's got nothing to do with the A-8.  If I pressed the point home like I would've before being liable as a trainer, I'd say it's you that should admit you're biased by your fondness of the A-8.

One last point.  This is a good example of how "evil" it is to argue with someone who follows arguments thoroughly to their end.  You might think it's evil.  I think it's the only responsible way to do it.

One very last point... If you really like the 190A-8 so much, you're welcome to write the intro for it on this page.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Fw_190#Fw_190A-8
150-250 words will do.

[BaldEagl]

Oh please.

Your several page witchunt began with this post:

I prefer the A8 with the 30mm gun package for raw lethality.  It's a beast.  It'll make you work because you can't really run in it.

It was simply my opinion but you've tried for pages now to pound it into the ground.  You could have simply let it go.  Now you try to come off all high and mighty playing the "trainer obligation" card.  I guess your obligation as a trainer is to do all you can to prove a players opinion wrong if you can?  What a tool.

[BaldEagl]

I have no problem admitting these; but in an objective assessment the 152 does in fact come above the A-8 in pretty much any metric except roll rate, and 1 times out of 3 in firepower with the 30mm A8 loadout.  Even though the 152 is a miserable ride for what's supposed to be a '45 design, it's still way better than the A-8.

If you have no problem admitting this why do you conveniently omit the facts that the Ta-152 is hampered in it's dive rate in comparison to the A8, that it will rip the wings off if pulled out of a high speed (~450 mph for the 152... ~600 mph for the A8) dive and that it's prone to radiator damage whereas the A8 has none of those issues?

Not very objective for a trainer only interested in presenting the facts.

[EDIT]  And how is a plane more lethal 1 times out of 3?  It either is or isn't.  I'll guarantee the A8's 30mm gun package is more lethal than any gun package the 152 carries 100% of the time.  If this is the type of info you are passing along as a trainer you are doing a disservice to the players and introducing your own personal bias.  In any case, you are not presenting facts in this regard.

[moot]

I'm not trying or clinging to anything, I'm only stating the facts apparent on their own. 
The A8 has lots of firepower yep.  So does the B25H, and just like the 25H the A8 has significant enough agility handicap for that firepower to be really limited in effectiveness.  Why not mount a 5" naval gun while you're at it? Same story with roll rate.  Roll where?  Not very far when you've got such a limited envelope.  Zoom?  The A8's climb is average at best. Engine power is also mediocre.  It drops like a brick but unlike the P-47 it can't use its flaps to really knife fight, so you're really in a one way street with the A-8, and the street points down.

1 times out of 3 meaning the 3 different gun packages.
The 152 doesn't rip its wings off any more than the P38 is incapable of diving because of compression.
Radiator damage, sure. Really minor thing unless you fly into bullets like rain.

As for high and mighty.  I think you just don't know who you're talking to.  I'm not interested in who, only what.  The A8 is a terrible plane. Absolutely terrible for luftwaffles like me, who just don't have anything to compete in the MAs with the spit dweebs.  Just awful MA performance.  If you want to prove me wrong, start there.  The Spitfires we have aren't even running at their historical best.  Even with a 190A-9 and an overboosted A-5, or maybe an overboosted D-9 and some franken 152H with no GM1 ballast, the allied dweebs have 150 octane which basically nulls the aforementioned 190 bonuses.  The only luftwaffle ride that in my mind can stand toe to toe with the late war allied plane set in an MA style fight is the 1.98 ata 109K-4.

So that's my full opinion on the matter right there.  You think the A-8 is all that, and I think it's not; and it's got nothing to do with taste.  And I'm not the only one with this opinion.  Ask Urchin for his opinion on it.  And all things considered, it's really not a matter of opinion and you really don't need to be a genius to appreciate that the A-8 is just way down on the performance ladder in an MA environment.  It's jus bad, period.  And so is the 152, to a lesser degree.  The D9 can run around like stink but unless you're flying it in a pack of 3-6, that's not much use.  The A-8 can probably manage something similar, but given its extra quick entropy and limited agility (worst sustained turn in the whole game!), it needs even more numbers. 

There's no way to spin this one.  The A-8 is just one of the worst planes to fight in, in an MA environment.  Absolutely nothing to do with taste.  If you really believe it's not, then show it to me, I'm all ears and eyes. Let's see evidence.

[Kurtank]

Personally, I like the 190's. There isn't one that I don't like. My favorite though, it the 152. That tater gun is so much dang fun. I always tell this story about a Yak-9 I managed to rip the tail section off of at D800 with a single tater shot whenever the Ta0152 or 190 is brought up. I never really go on buff hunts, but I love how well it handles on the deck. The wings sure are big targets, though.

[TonyJoey]

<snip>

+1

[bj229r]

It's REALLY REALLY hard to get kills in A8 which don't involve several friendlies being about, bombers, or an unawares pilot, though I've seen a very few guys who can jump into a 1 on 3 and come out victorious as often as not...not a frikkin clue how that is

[moot]

Ideally, someone like BaldEagl would write a Wiki article for the A-8 and bounce the final draft off NathBDP.

[BaldEagl]

Ideally, someone like BaldEagl would write a Wiki article for the A-8 and bounce the final draft off NathBDP.

I tried doing a wiki article early on.  I couldn't figure it out and gave up.