Suprise!!!!

[RTHolmes]

Patient: But logic wont work when you start asking questions!

Doctor: Ok thats a pretty serious condition. I'm going to prescribe you some Wittgenstein, if you finish the course and that hasnt cleared it up we can try some Ryle or Russell. You should be aware that the side effects may cause some irritatation. To people you are arguing with.

[MORAY37]

I think it would be a lot easier for some of the "holier than thous" in here to comment after they have owned any expanse of land in a venomous snake habitat.  I have owned almost 50 acres east of Kissimmee, FL and I own almost double here west of the San Juans.  Both areas are highly populated with venomous and non venomous snakes.  Further, it is ignorant to say that that the removal of venomous snakes promotes the growth of vermin on a property.  It is more a selective culling to protect both livestock, pets, and person.  I also have a "kill on site" policy of anything found to be venomous.  It makes sense and keeps the chances of a bite down.  I also do not promote wandering in the brush in shorts and sandals (long story and a trip to the hospital lesson).  The bottom line is that a venomous snake is not always prone to warning and more often not, attacks without a visible or audible warning. 

That is real life experience and not some bs lab talk.

That's funny.  I own land not 50 miles from Kissimmee, FL. 27 acres, with mixed habitat.  (Have directly identified 3 of the 4 poisonous snakes in Florida on my property.)

 That is the experience I speak from.  But, then again, who would expect you to actually read before you post your attack on me. (Two of my posts say it directly.)

It is not ignorant, as well, to say that the removal of a predator that specializes in killing rodents promotes the population growth of rodents.  That's basic population ecology. If you remove top down controls (predators) the population is more closely controlled, therefore, by bottom up (Food resources) means.  This allows for a higher population of rodents in the selected area.

 Seriously, Bodhi.  Read more.  Talk less.

[Anaxogoras]

Patient: But logic wont work when you start asking questions!

Doctor: Ok thats a pretty serious condition. I'm going to prescribe you some Wittgenstein, if you finish the course and that hasnt cleared it up we can try some Ryle or Russell. You should be aware that the side effects may cause some irritatation. To people you are arguing with.

Hehe, nice one.  I'm not so sure about Ryle or Russell, though.

[Bodhi]

It is not ignorant, as well, to say that the removal of a predator that specializes in killing rodents promotes the population growth of rodents.  That's basic population ecology. If you remove top down controls (predators) the population is more closely controlled, therefore, by bottom up (Food resources) means.  This allows for a higher population of rodents in the selected area.

 Seriously, Bodhi.  Read more.  Talk less.

There are plenty of bull and indigo snakes that abound in the area as well.  They are both adept killers of rodents and poisonous snakes.  Coral Snakes, rattlers, and cotton mouths all represent a serious danger to people if bitten.  Allowing them to remain on a property that is regularly used by both children and adults is haphazard.    Were I to even try to kill every last snake on the Florida property I would have failed miserably as I would never find them all.  Generally one's around structure and found in traveled areas received the axe.  The rancher that used a large portion of the land for cattle appreciated it, and also had the same policy.  The belief that only that only venomous snakes control the rodent population is ignorant.

Before you claim I attacked you, I'd suggest you read the majority of others posts defending snakes.  Those were what I was responding to, you egotistical donkey.  I could care less about you or of giving you the time of day.  If there were an ignore feature, you would be on it.

[MORAY37]

There are plenty of bull and indigo snakes that abound in the area as well.  They are both adept killers of rodents and poisonous snakes.  Coral Snakes, rattlers, and cotton mouths all represent a serious danger to people if bitten.  Allowing them to remain on a property that is regularly used by both children and adults is haphazard.    Were I to even try to kill every last snake on the Florida property I would have failed miserably as I would never find them all.  Generally one's around structure and found in traveled areas received the axe.  The rancher that used a large portion of the land for cattle appreciated it, and also had the same policy.  The belief that only that only venomous snakes control the rodent population is ignorant.

Before you claim I attacked you, I'd suggest you read the majority of others posts defending snakes.  Those were what I was responding to, you egotistical donkey.  I could care less about you or of giving you the time of day.  If there were an ignore feature, you would be on it.

LOL. This wasn't directed at me (below)?  How many biologists are in this thread then?  Bodhi, please keep going.  You following me around the boards is entertaining.

That is real life experience and not some bs lab talk.

[Anaxogoras]

Before you claim I attacked you, I'd suggest you read the majority of others posts defending snakes.  Those were what I was responding to

Who's that?  Saxman and I?     I would hardly characterize either of our posts as "holier than thou."  If you weren't addressing Moray, then please explain.

[Bodhi]

LOL. This wasn't directed at me (below)?  How many biologists are in this thread then?  Bodhi, please keep going.  You following me around the boards is entertaining.

Please get off your high horse and get this straight:

I do not care about you, think about you, nor ever want to deal with you. 

Grow the hell up.

[MORAY37]

Please get off your high horse and get this straight:

I do not care about you, think about you, nor ever want to deal with you. 

Grow the hell up.

It was you that has come after me in every thread.  Just stop, and you won't have to "deal" with me.  You've been muted for it, prior(as soon as three months ago??).  You came to this thread as you have to most others: Late and directly after me.  I am the only  person that directly said removal of venomous snakes increases rodent populations.  I'm the only one you know works in a lab.  I quote you....

  Further, it is ignorant to say that that the removal of venomous snakes promotes the growth of vermin on a property. 

That is real life experience and not some bs lab talk.

So, your course of action is very obvious.

Don't reply and cease your petty insults.

I surmise you cannot do either, as the past year and a half of you dogging me has shown.  I find it hilarious that you attempt to quote the scientific method as "not being a show of hands", yet seemingly always stand on the side that forms opinions based on absolutely zero empirical data whatsoever, such as your current one in this thread.

http://www.asih.org/files/positionpaper.pdf

[Vudak]

Moray,

I understand that you're "right" in that rats are technically the larger threat, but it's not going to make me see it that way...  If I were to see a poisonous snake around my property, and I had kids or animals I cared about, I'd kill the thing too, and either take my chances with the rats or meddle even more in the ecosystem to take on the rats via another method (cat, etc.)

I might be "wrong," but I don't care.  I'll rely on human instinct over empirical data when it comes to my own home.  Perhaps I'll pay the price and catch the plague, who knows?  It's better than seeing a kid/dog bit, IMO.

[MORAY37]

Moray,

I understand that you're "right" in that rats are technically the larger threat, but it's not going to make me see it that way...  If I were to see a poisonous snake around my property, and I had kids or animals I cared about, I'd kill the thing too, and either take my chances with the rats or meddle even more in the ecosystem to take on the rats via another method (cat, etc.)

I might be "wrong," but I don't care.  I'll rely on human instinct over empirical data when it comes to my own home.  Perhaps I'll pay the price and catch the plague, who knows?  It's better than seeing a kid/dog bit, IMO.

That is your prerogative on your land, and your right in constructive debate.  At least you can disagree respectfully.

[jimson]

Rattlers are territorial, and I've personally known 2 people who have been bitten, with no warning, no rattling, nothing. If you have kids or pets and you see one on your property, you would be a fool to just leave it there, I sure as hell won't.

[Vudak]

That is your prerogative on your land, and your right in constructive debate.  At least you can disagree respectfully.

Well I get what you're saying and it does make sense.  It's just that it's easier for me to imagine the snake bite than the plague. 

[Bodhi]

It was you that has come after me in every thread.  Just stop, and you won't have to "deal" with me.  You've been muted for it, prior(as soon as three months ago??).  You came to this thread as you have to most others: Late and directly after me.  I am the only  person that directly said removal of venomous snakes increases rodent populations.  I'm the only one you know works in a lab.  I quote you....

So, your course of action is very obvious.

Don't reply and cease your petty insults.

As I have said at least a dozen times in the past, get over yourself.  I could care less about your opinion of me, as you come off as nothing more than a childish blow hard in most people's eyes.

If you want to play "one-up-manship" for my week long ban, remember that you joined right along with me.  How about the repeated times I have logged into game and you barrage me with join requests, check sixes, and every possible way of harassment when I could care less about you.  I am not going to play your childish games anymore.  You just want to bait me into insulting you to try and get a ban. 

Grow up.

[MORAY37]

As I have said at least a dozen times in the past, get over yourself.  I could care less about your opinion of me, as you come off as nothing more than a childish blow hard in most people's eyes.

If you want to play "one-up-manship" for my week long ban, remember that you joined right along with me.  How about the repeated times I have logged into game and you barrage me with join requests, check sixes, and every possible way of harassment when I could care less about you.  I am not going to play your childish games anymore.  You just want to bait me into insulting you to try and get a ban. 

Grow up.

Yup, you just can't stay away. 
 

Post a film of my "abuse".  We both know there is none.  I mean, I don't even know what your in-game is, let alone care enough to ruin my enjoyment of the game to harass you.

[CptTrips]

There are probably 10 other species of snakes that also eat mice other than the three kind I kill on sight.  And thats not counting the neighbors cats, yotes, and hawks that thermal my hill.  I'm not concerned about the mice.  I am concerned about venemous snakes.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this issue.

Wab