Bring the F-104 to AH!

[niklas]

a little comment to the "lw lost 270 starfighters"

afaik the f104 was a good-weather high alt interceptor.

The LW wanted an allround fighter (european weather conditions, low alt flight etc.)

afaik the problem was that the f104 had an automatic system that pulled the stick forward when it gained a critical situation (stall?).
In a low "terrain following" flight, this was leathal.

The F104 turned out to be one of the least usable military equipment for the german LW.  F.J Strauß (german people know what that mean... ) was responsible for this "investment", and many still think today that not the quality of the F104 was the reason why the LW got it....

There was indeed a joke in germany:
How do you get a F104??
Just buy a ground somewhere and wait...

[funked]

Animal ROFL!

[Andy Bush]

Niklas

>>The LW wanted an allround fighter (european weather conditions, low alt flight etc.)<<

And that's what they got. The G model was a completely redesigned fighter-bomber with all weather intercept capability. The LW used the aircraft in two primary roles...low level nuclear strike and air defense intercept. The German naval air force used the G for maritime strike.

>>afaik the problem was that the f104 had an automatic system that pulled the stick forward when it gained a critical situation (stall?).In a low "terrain following" flight, this was leathal.<<

You are completely misinformed. The system that you describe functioned well as a 'anti-pitch up' warning device. It was not a contributor to the LW high accident rate.

Instead, the LW had more than its share of problems with poor maintenance, pilot error, missions that were flown at low altitude in lousy weather, and routine operations off of short airfields with rudimentary approach aids.

>>The F104 turned out to be one of the least usable military equipment for the german LW.<<

Another piece of BS.

You may argue all day long about the political maneuvers that went on behind the scenes that led to the decision to build the 104, but as far as the jet went...it did what it was supposed to do. Please remember that the LW did not buy 104s from the US...it bought the license to build them in Germany along with the other Consortium members (Denmark, Norway, Belgium, Holland, Spain, and Italy.

The 104 was an honest and good aircraft...it just suffered from the misguided and misinformed baloney that some felt the need to spew out.

I flew the jet for four years as a Fighter Weapons instructor and loved every minute of it.

There are two kinds of fighter pilots...those that flew the 104 and those that wished they had.

Andy

[Bluefish]

"Low level nuclear strike"?  The fact that West Germany had nuclear weapons may come as a BIG surprise to a lot of people.

[Westy]

Kurt Tank designed them. Little know fact. "Little Schnitzel" and "Fat Wurst" were the two bombs names. But Hitler insisted they be modified to as bombers and were never used.
 (slapos own face.. sorry!!!)

 Now back to the F-104 channel!! Andy, what is the real scoop on the leading egde of the wings? Really razor sharp or an exageration?

 -Westy

[funked]

They weren't that sharp.  They had a pretty small radius on the front though, maybe 1/16".  At least on the static F-104's I've fondled.  

[Andy Bush]

Westy

Not razor sharp or anything close. But sharp enough. I don't recall any specific measurement, but I always thought of the leading edge as being very much like the edge of a typical table knife. Sharp enough that if you bumped it with your head (as many have), you could end up with a nasty cut. The tail planes were equally sharp.

When compared to any other fighter's wing leading edge, the 104 wing was very unique.

The aircraft could do some pretty amazing things with that wing. Remember, it was only about seven feet long or so...and about 4 inches thick at the widest point of camber.

The jet could sustain about 6-7 Gs at about 420KIAS at low altitude...not too shabby for its era.

Its high speed capability is well known. When I flew the F-4, I thought that fast was 500KIAS...I've flown the 104 out to 800KIAS down to 200'AGL and that's fast! We strafed at 550KIAS with a min altitude of 75' and our fastest bomb delivery speed was 600KIAS at 200'. The only reason that we did not go faster was that the bomb carriage had not been certified for higher speeds.

Ya gotta love the jet! Still one of, if not THE, best looking jets ever made.

Just one man's opinion!

Andy

[Andy Bush]

Bluefish

They were US weapons. We controlled the storage and tasking of the weapons...the LW loaded and flew the missions.

Andy

[M.C.202]

Andy Bush said:
> The jet could sustain about 6-7 Gs at about 420KIAS at low altitude...not too shabby for its era.

How do you thing the "big wing" version that Kelly wanted to build would have been?

> Its high speed capability is well known. When I flew the F-4, I thought that fast was
> 500KIAS...I've flown the 104 out to 800KIAS down to 200'AGL and that's fast! We strafed at
> 550KIAS with a min altitude of 75' and our fastest bomb delivery speed was 600KIAS at
> 200'. The only reason that we did not go faster was that the bomb carriage had not been
> certified for higher speeds.

> Ya gotta love the jet! Still one of, if not THE, best looking jets ever made.

> Just one man's opinion!

> Andy

I hate you. :-)
I just got to work in Special Services in my four years in the A.F. Not at all what it sounds like, it's now called M.W.R. I think. Gym Jock. But being in charge of the "Womens Exercise Program" was not to bad. The base pool duty was ok too... :-)

The F-4 might have been more adaptable, but the F-104 looked like a what a F-4 was in it's hidden thoughts, a JET
.

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M.C.202
Dino in Reno

[SnakeEyes]

Did ya do alot of "Beta testing" MC?  

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[Andy Bush]

MC202

Hey...I liked the MWR troops! They were good people!

As for the follow-on proposals for the 104...there were quite a few. Ultimately, the final version ended up as a contender for what eventually became the F-16 program.

I did a review recently for SimHQ on a book, Skunk Works, by Jay Miller. He covers the entire F-104 development program and has some very neat info on the 'big wing' proposals. It would have been a real tiger!

Andy

[Dinger]

Fond memories here of watching the Starfighters based at Soest fly over my backyard in the late 70s.

The only model I ever built as a kid was an F-104.  Dunno how or why, but I really liked the speed brakes.
Last engagement I heard of was a pair of them scrambling from Italy to chase of some mig-29s leaking out of Serbia.

[Mattibaby80]

Here's your WW2 model of the F104, complete with its own launcher rack, just add some stubby wings and a cockpit and away you go!  

 



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Meine Schwester hat keine kartoffel salat?  Du bist eine lustige Buba!!!

[-ammo-]

 

Originally posted by Bluefish:
"Low level nuclear strike"?  The fact that West Germany had nuclear weapons may come as a BIG surprise to a lot of people.

if you really didnt know.. then you might really be surprised who we does have nuclear weepons. this is something that is "unspoken" or at least it used to be.

[M.C.202]

 SnakeEyes said:        
> Did ya do alot of "Beta testing" MC?

Not with dependents, wives would have been poor form, daughters would have been dangerous :-)

Now as to non-fellow (female sort) fellow services types...


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M.C.202
Dino in Reno