The Brewster 1 month on

[BnZs]

Unfortunately, those planes have been almost rarer in EW than in LW. The introduction if the B-239 and I-16 didn't change the utter dominance of the Hurricane IIC (still having ENY 10 only!) in any way.

I am curious about this dominance of the Hurricane IIC you speak of. When I look at the charts and it seems that almost every other plane in the EW set has a top speed and/or thrust/weight advantage over the HurrIIC. The A6M2 and HurriI do not of course IIRC,but then again they can angles fight it on a more than equal footing! I do not understand what the problem is when virtually every plane in the set has an exploitable performance advantage over it. Last time I went up in the EW arena, a wingman and I took up 190 A5s, and engaged some Hurris coming into base in groups of 2-4. Now the 190 A5 is a *terrible* fighter with mediocre guns, but even against this absurdly un-maneuverable brick, the Hurris were not fast enough to force a fight on their terms, did not have the engine power to equal the E state enough to force a disengagement, and couldn't really do anything except dodge, try to HO, and accept that we would be able to make gun pass after guns pass on them in relative safety. Even with my lousy shooting, several Hurris went to the happy hunting ground. Of course if it catches you low and slow enough in a less maneuverable fighter that is probably all she wrote, but that is pretty much true anytime a significantly less maneuverable fighter is caught with its pants by a better turner.

[Anaxogoras]

Not too hard to answer that question BnZs: a big majority of the playerbase can't make use of the advantages most aircraft have over the Hurri IIc.  For example, the 109F-4 absolutely owns it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Hurri has the better K/D ratio in that matchup in EW or MW.

[Karnak]

I am curious about this dominance of the Hurricane IIC you speak of. When I look at the charts and it seems that almost every other plane in the EW set has a top speed and/or thrust/weight advantage over the HurrIIC.

The Hurricane Mk IIc is not double superior, but it dominates the EWA like the Spit XVI you so hate can only dream about dominating the LWA.

[Lusche]

I am curious about this dominance of the Hurricane IIC you speak of. When I look at the charts and it seems that almost every other plane in the EW set has a top speed and/or thrust/weight advantage over the HurrIIC. The A6M2 and HurriI do not of course IIRC,but then again they can angles fight it on a more than equal footing! I do not understand what the problem is when virtually every plane in the set has an exploitable performance advantage over it. Last time I went up in the EW arena, a wingman and I took up 190 A5s, and engaged some Hurris coming into base in groups of 2-4. Now the 190 A5 is a *terrible* fighter with mediocre guns, but even against this absurdly un-maneuverable brick, the Hurris were not fast enough to force a fight on their terms, did not have the engine power to equal the E state enough to force a disengagement, and couldn't really do anything except dodge, try to HO, and accept that we would be able to make gun pass after guns pass on them in relative safety. Even with my lousy shooting, several Hurris went to the happy hunting ground. Of course if it catches you low and slow enough in a less maneuverable fighter that is probably all she wrote, but that is pretty much true anytime a significantly less maneuverable fighter is caught with its pants by a better turner.

There are several reasons to it. All root both in the plane's performance as well as the combat environment.

The main thing that can not be underestimated in any way is: firepower. Quad Hispanos DO make a difference. Especially in an arena not particularly crowded with überfirepower planes.Then add to this the very good maneuverability of the Hurricane. You can whirl around and bring your Hizookas to bear. And you don't need much of a burst to send any adversary down in flames. And of course, the Hurri IIC is a very stable gunplatform
And many planes do have an advantage on some areas, but experienced players do often overlook the fact that these advantages are not always being easily exploitable by the average player.
And now add another level: The combat environment. Numbers in EW are very lopsided most of the time. ENY of 10 means that you will quite often face a swarm of Hurricanes, some of them with ample altitude advantage. There's no more thing more ugly in EW than having a Hurricane with E advantage above you waiting to pick you off.

I was very sceptical when i heard that the Hurricane's dominance is just because of not having a sufficient variety of fighters. I expected the I-16 and Brewster wouldn't change much.
It seems I was right



And the only reason the A6M is getting numbers that high it's because it's the most capable CV fighter. It's very rarely seen in battles without any CV.

[Saxman]

What's the percentage of sorties by the IIC in the EWA?

[Lusche]

What's the percentage of sorties by the IIC in the EWA?

Nobody knows.

I use "killds+deaths" as a very rough "usage" indicator, but that's about it.

[BnZs]

The Hurricane Mk IIc is not double superior, but it dominates the EWA like the Spit XVI you so hate can only dream about dominating the LWA.

I don't "hate" cartoon airplanes Karnak. I truly, honestly,  find it bizarre and illogical to complain so about an airplane that has some obvious and exploitable performance disadvantages vs. nearly everything in the same arena set. You simply cannot call a plane "dominant" when all things being equal, it is not unreasonably hard for  most other planes to defeat, and is actually fairly easy for them to avoid. This is popularity contest thinking again, which is not "thinking" at all.

[BnZs]

Lusche, lopsided odds is a good argument for changing the ENY I reckon. It should handicap the high-numbers side, that is its purpose. But I'd say you'd have to change the ENY of planes other than the Hurri in there. Fighting against 5-1 odds with alt is ugly against 109Fs or SpitVs too. Hell, your goose is probably cooked against those odds if they be in P-40s.

You know though, one the planes I'd like to see added is the HurriIIB. Virtually the same as the HurriIIC, 12 .303s would be interesting and effective but not quite insta-death. One could add that, and crank the HurriIIC eny down to 5, although IMO it would still be a bizarre situation, because the high-performing 109 Fritz and the Zero which owns the Hurri in almost every respect would have higher ENY.

There are several reasons to it. All root both in the plane's performance as well as the combat environment.

The main thing that can not be underestimated in any way is: firepower. Quad Hispanos DO make a difference. Especially in an arena not particularly crowded with überfirepower planes.Then add to this the very good maneuverability of the Hurricane. You can whirl around and bring your Hizookas to bear. And you don't need much of a burst to send any adversary down in flames. And of course, the Hurri IIC is a very stable gunplatform
And many planes do have an advantage on some areas, but experienced players do often overlook the fact that these advantages are not always being easily exploitable by the average player.
And now add another level: The combat environment. Numbers in EW are very lopsided most of the time. ENY of 10 means that you will quite often face a swarm of Hurricanes, some of them with ample altitude advantage. There's no more thing more ugly in EW than having a Hurricane with E advantage above you waiting to pick you off.

I was very sceptical when i heard that the Hurricane's dominance is just because of not having a sufficient variety of fighters. I expected the I-16 and Brewster wouldn't change much.
It seems I was right

(Image removed from quote.)

And the only reason the A6M is getting numbers that high it's because it's the most capable CV fighter. It's very rarely seen in battles without any CV.

[Karnak]

BnZs,

You're problem is that you are too much ion love with theory and much, much too dismissive of actual data when it doesn't match your theory.  Because of that you cannot understand why or how the Hurricane Mk IIc is dominating and the Spitfire Mk XVI is not and you refuse to accept reality.

[thrila]

but....but..... double superior....

[Anaxogoras]

Hmmmmmm... Let me defend something unpopular:

Karnak, your objection would be stronger if you gave a better interpretation of BnZs position, which is that performance data should determine what is perked, and not much else.  Ultimately, he believes that if the player base cannot make use of, e.g., the 109F-4's superiority over the Hurri IIC and you end up with numbers like you see in EW, that's the fault of the players and not the aircraft.

I think you could motivate an objection based on the principle that results matter more than performance data, and then we'd have an actual debate.

[Lusche]

Just for the record... my own issue with the Hurri II in EW is just ENY, not a potential perk status.

And for ENY I just look at the impact on gameplay

And 35% of all kills AND a K/D of 2.0 are telling enough. Keep in mind that players are fluctuating inEW, but the HurriIIC had always numbers like these, since the arenas were split.

[Grendel]

It is a lovely little plane. You can't catch anything and everyone catches you. It is hard to catch anyone even with diving from altitude.
It takes special thinking to fly it, even weird mindset to actually enjoy it. It's a challenge and a truly sweet challenge.

And when you succeed with it, so sweet it tastes...

[Karnak]

Hmmmmmm... Let me defend something unpopular:

Karnak, your objection would be stronger if you gave a better interpretation of BnZs position, which is that performance data should determine what is perked, and not much else.  Ultimately, he believes that if the player base cannot make use of, e.g., the 109F-4's superiority over the Hurri IIC and you end up with numbers like you see in EW, that's the fault of the players and not the aircraft.

I think you could motivate an objection based on the principle that results matter more than performance data, and then we'd have an actual debate.

Right, he is focused on theory and actual results don't matter much to him.  I think theory is fun, but ultimately actual effect has to take priority.

[Wedge1126]

Actual data shows that the P-38J is vastly superior when compared with the P-38L.