The Brewster 1 month on

[Karnak]

Actual data shows that the P-38J is vastly superior when compared with the P-38L.

Post the data that supports that claim.  The data I have seen does not support it, it supports the idea that a small number of skilled players use it whereas the P-38L is used by a much larger number of players, most of them significantly less skilled.

[moot]

It sounds like he's (ironically) pointing out that stats, AKA data, aren't the best single perk metric as BNZ seems to argue.

[Lusche]

To bring this thread back on topic -

I do like the B-239 very much, It's a fun ride to fly, even when it's requiring a flying style completely opposing my usual "hit-and-run" tactics. I can't get away, but I can make them really having work for getting a kill on me. I like it much more than the FM-2, a plane I could never get used to.

[Ack-Ack]

Actual data shows that the P-38J is vastly superior when compared with the P-38L.

The numbers of the P-38J (especially in MidWar) are skewed by a relatively small number players that fly the P-38J almost exclusively.  Any actual performance difference between the two is very slight (other than the L having better roll rate at higher speeds and dive flaps) that any fight lost in a P-38J vs P-38L matchup isn't due to any performance disparity between both planes but rather on pilot skill.


ack-ack

[Anaxogoras]

It sounds like he's (ironically) pointing out that stats, AKA data, aren't the best single perk metric as BNZ seems to argue.

If he was making fun of k/d stats being a guide for eny/perks, then quite the opposite.

[Rich46yo]

I finally got a few kills in it, "tho a 5" gun prevented me from landing them".

The ROF of the 4 0.50s feels a little different. I like it tho. 4 0.50s is a decent package and i dont know why some call it weak.

Its a real pleasure at slow speeds. Seems responsive, actually it feels very agile and responsive thru all its speed range.

Good views. Seems to accelerate decently. When you can enter a fight with equal, or close to equal, "E" states, like against CV planes, the 239 feels like it can fight with anything.

its going to have a fine AH career I believe. I'd love to fly it in Historical recreations.

[Widewing]

Good views. Seems to accelerate decently. When you can enter a fight with equal, or close to equal, "E" states, like against CV planes, the 239 feels like it can fight with anything.

It can fight anything silly enough to slow down to engage it, and win without much sweat. I've said this a hundred times: Fight it like you would fight a Zero, except it is more durable and its guns will kill you at 800 yards.

Only the A6M2 has an edge on it, and it isn't enough of an edge to make much of a difference in the MAs.

I love the damn thing....


My regards,

Widewing

[B4Buster]

I'm surprised it killed so many ponies just because of the sheer speed difference. I'd be surprised if it knocks out as many next tour. Pony pilots have probably figured out it can turn extremely well and tread with caution.

I thought it was overmodeled aswell when I first encountered it, because of stories I had read about Tomahawk IIBs (P-40Bs) out-turning Brewsters in mock dogfights. Wmaker said it was a different variant that was heavier (didn't know). I was dumb for turning with it, Won't happen again 

[BnZs]

Right, he is focused on theory and actual results don't matter much to him.  I think theory is fun, but ultimately actual effect has to take priority.

My "actual results" from fighting against HurriIIc and from trying to fight against decent pilots while flying much slower aircraft with low thrust/weight are pretty convincing to me. The Hurri is dangerous but hardly insurmountable if you stay out its fight. The Zeke, Fritz, and SpitV all have a much better claim to being the uber un-perked fighters of the EW set than the Hurri.

Incidentally, I also wonder why the fast and decently armed but ridiculously bad-turning 190 A-5 is a perk plane. Rarity I suppose, but still the price seems rather high for what is the worst angles fighter in the set by a wide, wide margin. But I digress...

[BnZs]

Actual data shows that the P-38J is vastly superior when compared with the P-38L.

QFT!!!! Right on Bro!

[BnZs]

Hmmmmmm... Let me defend something unpopular:

Karnak, your objection would be stronger if you gave a better interpretation of BnZs position, which is that performance data should determine what is perked, and not much else.  Ultimately, he believes that if the player base cannot make use of, e.g., the 109F-4's superiority over the Hurri IIC and you end up with numbers like you see in EW, that's the fault of the players and not the aircraft.

I think you could motivate an objection based on the principle that results matter more than performance data, and then we'd have an actual debate.

Anax, are you seriously telling me that most players in EW cannot figure out how to make use of the advantages of top speed and a rather massive engine power advantage? Because they seem to know how to use those advantages in LW.

Complaints about the Hurri's are in fact strikingly similar to Krusty's complaints about the Brewster's purported uberness...

EDIT: Bottom line, the ENY/Perk system should not be used to punish popularity. If players are choosing to fly a particular model from a selection of equally viable models for over 1/3rd of sorties, that does not unfairly effect the arena environment for someone chooses to fly something else, and getting huffy over it seems just slightly fascist.

[BnZs]

Brewsters:
I think I've been killed 1v1 by one ONCE in a "LW" uber ride since they came out, and that is because I blew multiple easy shots while E-fighting one in a P-38 and was mad enough to commit suicide by trying to fight on its terms instead of getting out of dodge. It is a good t'n'ber but rumors of UFO status are greatly exaggerated.

[CAP1]

I am curious about this dominance of the Hurricane IIC you speak of. When I look at the charts and it seems that almost every other plane in the EW set has a top speed and/or thrust/weight advantage over the HurrIIC. The A6M2 and HurriI do not of course IIRC,but then again they can angles fight it on a more than equal footing! I do not understand what the problem is when virtually every plane in the set has an exploitable performance advantage over it. Last time I went up in the EW arena, a wingman and I took up 190 A5s, and engaged some Hurris coming into base in groups of 2-4. Now the 190 A5 is a *terrible* fighter with mediocre guns, but even against this absurdly un-maneuverable brick, the Hurris were not fast enough to force a fight on their terms, did not have the engine power to equal the E state enough to force a disengagement, and couldn't really do anything except dodge, try to HO, and accept that we would be able to make gun pass after guns pass on them in relative safety. Even with my lousy shooting, several Hurris went to the happy hunting ground. Of course if it catches you low and slow enough in a less maneuverable fighter that is probably all she wrote, but that is pretty much true anytime a significantly less maneuverable fighter is caught with its pants by a better turner.

it's largely due to the way our cartoon combat happens. it happens low, in thick air where the hurri can dominate. usually low enough that even with a more powerful aircraft, you're most likely not gonna accelerate away from him before he can pop a few rounds in ya.....and that's all the hurri needs, is a couple rounds.
 back when i was flying it, i was amazed at the power of it's hispanos. all one needs to do, is to get the faster plane to turn fight for a bit......and a LOT will do that.

[Motherland]

Brewsters:
I think I've been killed 1v1 by one ONCE in a "LW" uber ride since they came out, and that is because I blew multiple easy shots while E-fighting one in a P-38 and was mad enough to commit suicide by trying to fight on its terms instead of getting out of dodge. It is a good t'n'ber but rumors of UFO status are greatly exaggerated.

I have a 11:1 K/D ratio to the Brewster... the 1 death was in a Bf 110C-4/b mixing it up.

[Anaxogoras]

Anax, are you seriously telling me that most players in EW cannot figure out how to make use of the advantages of top speed and a rather massive engine power advantage? Because they seem to know how to use those advantages in LW.

I wouldn't say that most players know how to use an energy advantage to defeat better turning aircraft in any arena.  So yeah, I'm serious.

Btw, you must adopt the line I suggest for you above, otherwise the K/D ratio of the Hurri IIC vs the 109F-4 leaves you dead in the water.