The Brewster 1 month on

[Karnak]

Yes, results matter more than stats.  More, I would say that results reveal the shortcomings of stats by tracking all factors, not just the easy to put in number form factors.

[Vudak]

A few things to consider...

1. It's rarely the 190 that's the problem, but the gaggle of Spits/Hurris/(and now Brewsters) that follow (or, it's rarely the Brewster that's a problem, but the 190 that forces you to turn)
2. Some people in the EWA aren't exactly known for liking balanced competition...  And this exacerbates #1.

[sandwich]

the brewster is my enemy

he can outturn me in any way and still has some verttical for when i run out of E

[Ack-Ack]

the brewster is my enemy

he can outturn me in any way and still has some verttical for when i run out of E

That's because you're playing the Brewster's game by turning with it.  Honestly, if you're in something other than an A6M2, DO NOT TURN with the Brewster, it will eat you up and crap you out for lunch.  Use your plane's strengths to mitigate the Brewster's.


ack-ack

[Saxman]

I will say that if you've misjudged that Brewster's E state she can make life difficult for you. She really seems to hold on to E well, and can REALLY float around in the vertical.

[BnZs]

I wouldn't say that most players know how to use an energy advantage to defeat better turning aircraft in any arena.  So yeah, I'm serious.

Btw, you must adopt the line I suggest for you above, otherwise the K/D ratio of the Hurri IIC vs the 109F-4 leaves you dead in the water.

Okay, enlighten me, how does someone in a Hurri of *any* mark kill a Fritz who is not interested in being shot down, short of vulching one that gets caught low and slow? Last time I played that scenario was Dieppe FSO, I put lots of holes in many Hurris (terrible shot, alas), and landed, without ever having even come close to being shot down.

In my scenario of a wingpair Fw-190 vs. Hurris, a pack of 109Fs would have been FAR more dangerous in the Hurri's place, simply because they could match the e-building potential of the Fws and turn the tables far quicker if bounced.

Karnak: You keep speaking of results. But I've done both sides of the E vs. angles fighter with some very good pilots. Including Hurri vs. whatever. The fighter which is significantly inferior in both speed and thrust/weight doesn't stand much chance of shooting down an E fighter who doesn't do something stupid, and will likely be subjected to multiple guns passes until he is shot down, fuel/ammo forces the E fighter to disengage, or an interloper shows up. The HurriIIc simply isn't as dangerous an opponent to as many fighters as say the 109F is, or the Brewster for that matter, popularity with the amateurish who only understand "Turns good! Four cannons!" aside.

[Anaxogoras]

Okay, enlighten me, how does someone in a Hurri of *any* mark kill a Fritz who is not interested in being shot down, short of vulching one that gets caught low and slow? Last time I played that scenario was Dieppe FSO, I put lots of holes in many Hurris (terrible shot, alas), and landed, without ever having even come close to being shot down.

Yeah, but that's you.  Some of us can kill Hurris with the 109F-4 and take on negligible risk while doing so.  For most, they're risking a lot if they want to do more than sight-see.  How does an La-7 lose to a P-51D on the deck when he starts on the pony's 6?  Simple: he screws up.

[Letalis]

Last tour I was 5-2 against the Brew. Why was it able to kill me? I was probably flying one myself...
This tour me no fly turny slow things. Score: 9-0          Coincidence? I think not. 
Too slow for me to have much fun in but struck me as having significantly better roll than the FM2 which was nice.

[Karnak]

Karnak: You keep speaking of results. But I've done both sides of the E vs. angles fighter with some very good pilots. Including Hurri vs. whatever. The fighter which is significantly inferior in both speed and thrust/weight doesn't stand much chance of shooting down an E fighter who doesn't do something stupid, and will likely be subjected to multiple guns passes until he is shot down, fuel/ammo forces the E fighter to disengage, or an interloper shows up. The HurriIIc simply isn't as dangerous an opponent to as many fighters as say the 109F is, or the Brewster for that matter, popularity with the amateurish who only understand "Turns good! Four cannons!" aside.

I am talking about total results, not individual results of statistical outliers.

Before my break I went about 3-1 in the Mossie, does that mean it is too good and should be perked or does its .6-1 overall ratio mean it isn't very good and should have a fairly high ENY value?

[Anaxogoras]

I am talking about total results, not individual results of statistical outliers.

Before my break I went about 3-1 in the Mossie, does that mean it is too good and should be perked or does its .6-1 overall ratio mean it isn't very good and should have a fairly high ENY value?

Yes Karnak, but can anyone take the position that the Hurri IIC is better than the 109F-4 just because of the stats from early war?  I'd hope not.  Main arena results can be very misleading.  Aircraft that are really poop can do quite well, and great aircraft sometimes never surpass main arena mediocrity in terms of 'results.'

If you want an objective comparison of aircraft strengths and weaknesses in combat, you have to have competent pilots flying them, and in the arenas that's a statistical outlier.

[Karnak]

Effect on the MAs is what determines perking in theory and total results are the thing that matter in that regards, not the optimum capability of an aircraft.

When I look at things like K/D ratios I also look at overall usage as greater usage drives down K/D ratios because 1) the aircraft is flown by a greater cross section of skills rather than a few self selected experts and 2) increased usage increases the number of canabalistic kills where the aircraft kills its own type resulting in a 1-1 ratio for that fight.

In the case of the Hurri IIc, it maintains a 2-1 ratio in the EWA despite being, by far, the most popular fighter in the EWA.

[olskool2]

Statistics and results are skewed equally and neither mean anything. This has already been proven in this very thread.

[Anaxogoras]

Effect on the MAs is what determines perking in theory and total results are the thing that matter in that regards, not the optimum capability of an aircraft.

From the ENY/Perk values that we have today, it's an inescapable conclusion that they are completely ad-hoc and wildly inconsistent.  There might be 5 different competing and contradictory reasons for the ENY/Perk values we have today.  All is for naught in this thread.

[BnZs]

I am talking about total results, not individual results of statistical outliers.

Before my break I went about 3-1 in the Mossie, does that mean it is too good and should be perked or does its .6-1 overall ratio mean it isn't very good and should have a fairly high ENY value?

Shooting down a fighter which is vastly inferior in energy performance is not an "outlier", it is something that is done every day by merely competent, not elite pilots. And merely "picking" slower planes multi-bandit environment while avoiding getting shot down by virtue of speed is the dead-simplest and most common strategy there is, and it works. In LW, the Dora9 is at a disadvantage vs. the Spixteen in every way *except* top speed, yet the former consistently has a higher k/d ratio...

So there must be a cultural dynamic in the EW making the HurriIIc look better than it really is...I suspect it is really, really, really bad piloting, milk-running, hoarding, and probably quite a lot of shade-vulching to boot. Changing the ENY of the Hurricane to force the high numbers side out of their Hurris while leaving them free to fly 109Fs and SpitVs is absurd will do nothing to fix this "cultural" problem.

[Karnak]

BnZs,

That is your mistake.  You constantly try to remove the aircraft from their environment and judge them that way.  You cannot do that and get useful results.  Reality trumps theory, everytime.