Remove Perks from C-Hog

[Vudak]

Are we assigning perk/ENY values based on aircraft performance or are we assigning them based on whether or not vets like that model?

I like to look at it as potential vs. reality, and reality should reign supreme.

If we look at potential, the K4 and D9 should both be perk planes.

In reality, we both know the number of people that can dominate in them is small enough that a perk price is completely unnecessary.

By contrast, the Tempest has both the potential to be a perk plane, and in reality, is quite easily dominant in the hands of many, many players.  As such, it gets, and deserves, a perk.

I think that the c-hog has that potential and reality, though I could be wrong.

[Vudak]

Honestly, if your idea is to distribute a plane that will gives noobs a chance, by all means, unperk the F4U-4.

 

I really need to drag Bait over here and have him to fly the -4 while I film.  He's been flying a few weeks. 

The Corsairs might be great planes, but they aren't great planes right out of the box.

[Stoney]

I think entirely too much emphasis is being placed on the gun package and not enough on whether or not most planes have a corner of the envelope they can exploit against X to avoid being in the gun sight in the first place.

That's because these types of players do not particularly "exploit" their performance envelope (excepting speed)--they exploit their firepower.  ACM and gunnery skills are low for these players--they don't understand how to take advantage of any aircraft's performance.  They point and shoot, run away, and then come back and do it again.  High firepower makes them successful as they HO and spray their way to kills.  That's why this player demographic prefers the N1K2, the Typh, the Hurri IIC, and would prefer the F4U-1C if it was perk-free.

[BnZs]

That's because these types of players do not particularly "exploit" their performance envelope (excepting speed)--they exploit their firepower.  ACM and gunnery skills are low for these players--they don't understand how to take advantage of any aircraft's performance.  They point and shoot, run away, and then come back and do it again.  High firepower makes them successful as they HO and spray their way to kills.  That's why this player demographic prefers the N1K2, the Typh, the Hurri IIC, and would prefer the F4U-1C if it was perk-free.

The player demographic prefers the P-51D over all of those, 6 .50s and all.

That btw, is why you are wrong about the 4-Hog vs. the C-Hog. All the people flying and landing kills in the P-51D apparently find 6 .50s adequate. If they switched to the 4-Hog, they would find an airplane that performed better in every way, AND had more ammo. Meanwhile, if they switched to the C-Hog, they would find their attempts to disengage hampered by the fact that half the common plane types in a furball can run them down and most can out-accelerate them. The C-Hog may be a great killer but it ain't the SURVIVOR that many unperked planes are. The 4-Hogs would be uncatchable by most and eat most of the LW set for lunch in a "fair" fight anyway. The C-Hogs would be run down and killed with the right tactics.

I just don't think perks/ENY should be based on lowest common denominator ACM and popularity.

[BnZs]

I like to look at it as potential vs. reality, and reality should reign supreme.

If we look at potential, the K4 and D9 should both be perk planes.

In reality, we both know the number of people that can dominate in them is small enough that a perk price is completely unnecessary.

By contrast, the Tempest has both the potential to be a perk plane, and in reality, is quite easily dominant in the hands of many, many players.  As such, it gets, and deserves, a perk.

I think that the c-hog has that potential and reality, though I could be wrong.

These are exceedingly poor examples.
Neither the K4 or the D9 is clearly the fastest unperked plane at typical MA altitudes. Many planes are very near both in speed. Neither is a great turner. The D9 is in fact almost the worst turner, beating only other 190s in that regard, and out-done by quite a few types in climb and accel. Its gun package is good but not uber. The K4 is quite the dogfighter in the right hands, double superior to quite a few models in fact, but boasts numerous serious weaknesses: poor dive handling, poor views, squirrely handling, and what is among the most difficult gun packages in the game.

The Tempest, by contrast, is the fastest prop job at typical alts, out-accels the whole field, carries the best a2a gun package in the game, and, here is the clincher, actually can out-turn the P-51Ds, P-47Ns, D9s, etc, that come nearest to being able to run with it, although most Tempest fliers make no use of this potential.  The singular exception to this rule is the La7.

[Karnak]

Remember, when the F4U-1C was free it was always responsible for 15-20% of a tours kills and at the same time maintained a very high K/D ratio, and it did this before the F4Us had super flaps.  Look at our current top four, they each get 5-8% of a tour's total kills and never vary much from a 1 to 1 K/D ratio.  The Typhoon was there too, yet it never put up those kinds of numbers despite being faster and having four Hispano IIs as well.

[Vudak]

These are exceedingly poor examples.
Neither the K4 or the D9 is clearly the fastest unperked plane at typical MA altitudes. Many planes are very near both in speed. Neither is a great turner. The D9 is in fact almost the worst turner, beating only other 190s in that regard, and out-done by quite a few types in climb and accel. Its gun package is good but not uber. The K4 is quite the dogfighter in the right hands, double superior to quite a few models in fact, but boasts numerous serious weaknesses: poor dive handling, poor views, squirrely handling, and what is among the most difficult gun packages in the game.

The Tempest, by contrast, is the fastest prop job at typical alts, out-accels the whole field, carries the best a2a gun package in the game, and, here is the clincher, actually can out-turn the P-51Ds, P-47Ns, D9s, etc, that come nearest to being able to run with it, although most Tempest fliers make no use of this potential.  The singular exception to this rule is the La7.

I'll grant the D9 is a stretch, but if we were to perk planes based on potential, the K4 fits the bill.  It has poor dive handling and poor views.  The squirrely handling can be harnessed.  The difficult gun package can be mastered.  Potential has nothing to do with difficulty.  That is where reality comes in.

The K4 is a plane that could be perked (along with its competitors), but why would you?  It's not unbalancing.  Neither is the Spit XVI for that matter.

[Anaxogoras]

Remember, when the F4U-1C was free it was always responsible for 15-20% of a tours kills and at the same time maintained a very high K/D ratio, and it did this before the F4Us had super flaps.  Look at our current top four, they each get 5-8% of a tour's total kills and never vary much from a 1 to 1 K/D ratio.  The Typhoon was there too, yet it never put up those kinds of numbers despite being faster and having four Hispano IIs as well.

Smaller planeset, and no XVI.  Why not retest it just as an experiment?

[BnZs]

I'll grant the D9 is a stretch, but if we were to perk planes based on potential, the K4 fits the bill.  It has poor dive handling and poor views.  The squirrely handling can be harnessed.  The difficult gun package can be mastered.  Potential has nothing to do with difficulty.  That is where reality comes in.

The K4 is a plane that could be perked (along with its competitors), but why would you?  It's not unbalancing.  Neither is the Spit XVI for that matter.

Bah, even Agent misses shots with the 30mm where a pair of Hispanos give a kill. The K4 is right on the edge of deserving a perk price given its abilities relative so much of the rest of the set, but IMO these factor are enough to edge it out of perk status, although its ENY is still far too high IMO.

[Vudak]

Bah, even Agent misses shots with the 30mm where a pair of Hispanos give a kill. The K4 is right on the edge of deserving a perk price given its abilities relative so much of the rest of the set, but IMO these factor are enough to edge it out of perk status, although its ENY is still far too high IMO.

Don't get me wrong--I don't think there's any reason on earth why it should be a perk ride in reality.

I'm just talking potential here.  And I do not think potential is a good reason to perk something if the reality doesn't add up (see Ta152).

I think the Chog has the potential and the reality.  I think the oft-hated hogs would be hated even more if those numerous brief snapshot scratches were replaced with numerous brief snapshot kills.

[BnZs]

Don't get me wrong--I don't think there's any reason on earth why it should be a perk ride in reality.

I'm just talking potential here.  And I do not think potential is a good reason to perk something if the reality doesn't add up (see Ta152).

I think the Chog has the potential and the reality.  I think the oft-hated hogs would be hated even more if those numerous brief snapshot scratches were replaced with numerous brief snapshot kills.

Ta-152 is another poor example. It never had much of anything going for it at typical MA alts that many other planes don't. Fast, but not the fastest, generally poor turner, etc.

I understand about how popular anything with quad cannon will be, but surely YOU must understand the irony I see in the C-Hog perk status when it presents fewer problems for many LW planes than some unperked planes do.

The only people I know of who "hate" Hogs are those who seem to believe that because it is big, it must have the same wing-loading as a P-47...

[Vudak]

Ta-152 is another poor example. It never had much of anything going for it at typical MA alts that many other planes don't. Fast, but not the fastest, generally poor turner, etc.

I'm not really seeing how the Ta-152 is a poor example, unless we're having a breakdown in communication as to what I'm using it to illustrate.  It was perked for a good long while, and I can only assume because of its potential (the whole 3-cannon La-7 debunks the "rarity" argument IMO).  However, whatever potential it may have in certain areas wasn't ever utilized by the reality of the MA (low alt fights, etc).  Thus, it did not deserve a perk.

I understand about how popular anything with quad cannon will be, but surely YOU must understand the irony I see in the C-Hog perk status when it presents fewer problems for many LW planes than some unperked planes do.

I think this comes down to personal style...  A hog (or, for comparison, F6F, Ki84, and possibly the P-47) will give me more problems than most Spits, 109s, 190s, 51s, etc.  YMMV.

[Karnak]

Smaller planeset, and no XVI.  Why not retest it just as an experiment?

You seem to not understand what it means that the F4U-1C had 15-20% of the kills and still managed to have a very high K/D ratio.

Normally when an aircraft is very popular its K/D ratio is suppressed by all the green players using it.  That is why the P-51D, Spitfire Mk XVI, La-7 and N1K2-J always have mediocre K/D ratios despite their obvious potential to have great K/D ratios.  That did not follow through with the F4U-1C as it maintained a high K/D ratio despite being used enmasse by inexperienced players.  The introduction of the Spitfire Mk XVI and La-7 did not cause the K/D ratios of the P-51D and N1K2-J to drop, I see no reason to think they would do so to the F4U-1C's K/D ratio.

[lyric1]

Ah hell perk it higher

[waystin2]

No to this one HTC.