Remove Perks from C-Hog

[Anaxogoras]

You seem to not understand what it means that the F4U-1C had 15-20% of the kills and still managed to have a very high K/D ratio.

Normally when an aircraft is very popular its K/D ratio is suppressed by all the green players using it.  That is why the P-51D, Spitfire Mk XVI, La-7 and N1K2-J always have mediocre K/D ratios despite their obvious potential to have great K/D ratios.  That did not follow through with the F4U-1C as it maintained a high K/D ratio despite being used enmasse by inexperienced players.  The introduction of the Spitfire Mk XVI and La-7 did not cause the K/D ratios of the P-51D and N1K2-J to drop, I see no reason to think they would do so to the F4U-1C's K/D ratio.

I understand very well what it means, but I'm not so intimidated by it because you all might as well have been playing a different game then.  Karnak, I thought you were all about experience trumping theory.  Enough aircraft have been introduced since then to make unperking the C-Hog a worthwhile experiment.  Come over to my side and be on the side of letting experience be the judge.

If it turns out to be a bad idea it can always be reperked again.

[moot]

The 152 when introduced could turn with nikis and spits for 2 turns, and not just high/med initial speed turns.  Much better than now.  It also didn't have such a squirrely tail end, incl. during said tight maneuvers.  It had better e retention and gained speed faster (not sure on this one, though, just what I remember noticing when the FM changed) than now.. It could keep up with anything in the game.

Even now, the 152 has potential to be perked.  But as Vudak says, it's a good example because of how difficult it is to extract that perk-worthy performance from it.

I don't think the Chog or F4U4 ought to be unperked.  What about situations where you have no XVIs?  e.g. CV vs CV.  There'd be little use for the other CV planes.  And considering how cheap the chog is, why bother?  A couple of kills in a spitfire are enough to pay for it.

[Lusche]

Time for a senseless stats break!

I'm all in favor of unperking the C-Hog simply because the XVI is a good opponent for it.  During CV fights you see droves and droves of XVIs defending, so why not droves and droves of C-Hogs attacking?

These two aircraft are well matched.  In the name of consistency, it's better to unperk the C-Hog than to perk the XVI.

This got me curious again. After giving it some thought, I came to the conclusion that there is one CV plane that one can see very rarely outside of CV attacks: The F4U-1D
So I looked up the "killed by numbers" for tour 114. For comparison, I added F6F numbers.



It's not exactly what I "droves after droves" does imply to me. But it's also certainly not as high as I did expect myself, for the Spit XVI seems to be the perfect base defender under such circumstances. But actually the Spit 16 kill numbers vs F-4UD are only slighty higher it's total arena average.


You now may continue with this thread 

[BnZs]

The 152 when introduced could turn with nikis and spits for 2 turns, and not just high/med initial speed turns.  Much better than now.  It also didn't have such a squirrely tail end, incl. during said tight maneuvers.  It had better e retention and gained speed faster (not sure on this one, though, just what I remember noticing when the FM changed) than now.. It could keep up with anything in the game.

Even now, the 152 has potential to be perked.  But as Vudak says, it's a good example because of how difficult it is to extract that perk-worthy performance from it.

I don't think the Chog or F4U4 ought to be unperked.  What about situations where you have no XVIs?  e.g. CV vs CV.  There'd be little use for the other CV planes.  And considering how cheap the chog is, why bother?  A couple of kills in a spitfire are enough to pay for it.

That is interesting Moot, but nowadays the Ta-152 is not clearly superior to the P-51D, D9, or F4U-1A. So saying it has the potential to be perked makes little sense. A plane needs some extraordinary advantages in performance to be be perked.

BTW..."rarity" argument...okay, the Ta-152 was rare than the C-Hog. But it is not like there was some vastly more common and representative Ta-152 variants out there, as is the case with the C-Hog vs. regular Hogs. Something to think about. And Ta-152s don't operate off of CVs. 

[moot]

I don't argue historical rarity. 

The 152 is superior to the 51D, D9, and F4U1A.  Not clearly, but it is.  Part of the reason it's not clearly so is because of how deep into the envelope, and consistently, you have to reach to have a sum performance that's really perk worthy.  But once you have enough stick time in all three, it's clear enough.  The F4U is way lower.  The D9 would also be a complete minor to the 152 except for it's speed.  The 51D is lesser only because of its lack of acceleration; the 152 can just leave it behind (below) from low speed -- but overall the 51D is only lesser by a really small margin, and it's so much more eminently user-friendly that in practice it's clearly a better plane for the average player.

So, like others said, you can't realistically have an ENY system strictly decided by either potential or popularity.  It has to be a comprehensive combination of both.  There's another thread right now with this topic, so I'll leave that for that other thread.  I think the chog is definitely on target with a price of 1-5 perks..  The 4-Hog really couldnt be free.  Anyone that manages to keep the F6F or F4Us in the air long enough to get just a couple of kills, or dodge a few more attacks, would benefit from the 4-Hog's bonus in performance.  It's not like the 152 vs 190s where it's really a different animal.  That bonus in performance that makes the -4 the best prop dogfighter in the game is easily accessible.

[Saxman]

The 152 is superior to the...F4U1A.

I don't fly the others so I can't make a judgment call there, but I have a VERY hard time seeing this one, especially at typical altitudes in the Mains. Rate of climb and top speed are too close, with the 152 and 1A trading off advantages until the fight gets up above 25,000ft (which you don't see often in the Mains). In fact, the 152 is HEAVILY reliant on WEP to obtain any sort of advantage or parity in speed and climb with the 1A in the first place, especially at typical MA altitudes. The extended wingtips of the 152 impact its rate of roll--especially compared to the other 190s--while the 1A has a superior sustained turn radius with equal or better turn rate. The 152 has the heavier firepower, but the 1A has much easier gunnery and a superior sight picture.

At typical Mains altitudes, equal pilots, equal starting altitudes, the 1A will win that fight more often than not.

[moot]

I'll take you up on it anytime.  The 152's wep?  It lasts 10 minutes and takes just 5 to cool off.  That means 15 min of effective wep (using when needed only) before really being out of that wep it "depends" on.
The roll rate isn't a problem. I wouldn't say it if it wasn't true.

1A wins the fight.. No way.  The only way the 152 is inferior is in agility until it's down to ~10klbs with FWD, wing, or DT fuel.  Till then it can just stay fast.  Would you call the 262 inferior because it doesn't slow down for the 1A?  The 1A doesn't keep up with the 152 as far as I've seen, in such a high speed fight.  The 152 can just be patient and let that happen.  No matter whether that's timid, it's what makes the 1A inferior IMO.

[Saurdaukar]

Please remove the perks from the only US plane with any real Cannon (the C-Hog).  The 190's, Hurrie-C, even spits have tons of cannon with no perks.

We really want to fly US aircraft but have to take German stuff to do any real damage!!!!!

Nein.

[Saxman]

I'll take you up on it anytime.  The 152's wep?  It lasts 10 minutes and takes just 5 to cool off.  That means 15 min of effective wep (using when needed only) before really being out of that wep it "depends" on.
The roll rate isn't a problem. I wouldn't say it if it wasn't true.

1A wins the fight.. No way.  The only way the 152 is inferior is in agility until it's down to ~10klbs with FWD, wing, or DT fuel.  Till then it can just stay fast.  Would you call the 262 inferior because it doesn't slow down for the 1A?  The 1A doesn't keep up with the 152 as far as I've seen, in such a high speed fight.  The 152 can just be patient and let that happen.  No matter whether that's timid, it's what makes the 1A inferior IMO.

Nice apples and oranges comparison there.

The 152 doesn't have anything APPROACHING the speed differential over the 1A the 262 has. She's marginally faster up to 5k on WEP while the 1A takes over through 15k. The 152 has a band of a slight speed advantage until 20k where the 1A's second supercharger stage kicks in with both aircraft roughly the same, slightly favoring of the Corsair until ~22k, at which point the 152's specialization towards high altitudes takes over. Altitudes that are seldom seen in the Mains. Furthermore, the difference in airspeeds are ONLY within a few mph, neither of which are insurmountable. Neither aircraft has such an advantage over the other as to dominate the fight in terms of pure speed WITHOUT a starting altitude advantage.

[moot]

E retention.
Like I said, we can split hairs all day.  I'm game for practical test anytime.

[Saurdaukar]

Neither aircraft has such an advantage over the other as to dominate the fight in terms of pure speed WITHOUT a starting altitude advantage.

As moot stated above, the reason the Ta152 is such a fantastic aircraft is E-retention; especially in the vertical.  The Corsair, good as it is at the same game due to weight and wing design, can not follow the 152.

This statistic is not easily measured, but exists all the same.

The ability to retain E is the period at the end of each engagement.  The cartoon pilot who can seemlessly exchange speed for altitude, altitude for speed and either or both for an angle - with minimum loss of E - will win every time.

In this type of scenario, the huge advantage in low-speed turning radius that the Corsair enjoys is worthless because, in order to squeeze the perk-worthy performance out of the 152, youre going to E-fight in the vertical not turn and burn at 150kts - and in the vertical - a 152 will embarass my beloved K4 - let alone a Corsair.

[Saxman]

The huge advantage in low-speed turning radius that the Corsair enjoys...

Not the point of the argument, but keep in mind I never specified low-speed turning ability. Never even said flaps, either. Interesting mindset people have about the Corsair that they immediately assume all they're going to do is dump speed to go to flaps.

[moot]

Especially in the vertical but also in maneuvering.  I don't know the specific aerodynamic math for it, but someone suggested it was due to the high aspect ratio.
I don't have as much experience in the 1A as I do in the 152, so I welcome anyone to come test it out in practice.  Everybody can learn from the results.

[Saxman]

Especially in the vertical but also in maneuvering.  I don't know the specific aerodynamic math for it, but someone suggested it was due to the high aspect ratio.
I don't have as much experience in the 1A as I do in the 152, so I welcome anyone to come test it out in practice.  Everybody can learn from the results.

I'm a poor choice for it right now. Haven't been able to fly much and Murphy's been sitting in the cockpit with me every time I've gone up this tour. I'm on my way to setting a record for single-ping .303 p/ks.

[moot]

Alright.. I'll try and see if Widewing & co have some free time for it.