The Soviet set

[Easyscor]

1942-43 is my favorite period, especially for eastern front events. The equipment, except for radios, was the most balanced with tactics and morale playing the pivotal roles imo.

Edit:

You are welcome Smiley There is a pretty good book about LaGG-3 as well:

Grabed it!

Thanks

[Anaxogoras]

1942-43 is my favorite period, especially for eastern front events. The equipment, except for radios, was the most balanced with tactics and morale playing the pivotal roles imo.

If you ever fly an offline campaign in Il-2 in the Luftwaffe or VVS, you'll be fairly surprised by what types were in service in the VVS and may want to rethink that statement.  The Lagg-3 was nicknamed "the coffin," or something like that, and continues to have a presence through the whole war.  Same goes for the P-39. The I-16 and I-153 are both numerous straight into the middle of 1943.  Even when you get to 1944, most VVS fighters are going to be Yak-9s (not the U) and La-5s (not the FN).  It seems like the percentage of latest-and-greatest aircraft is only about 5-10%, and what passes for an "average" fighter on the German side is far more preferable.

[-aper-]

If you ever fly an offline campaign in Il-2 in the Luftwaffe or VVS, you'll be fairly surprised by what types were in service in the VVS and may want to rethink that statement.  The Lagg-3 was nicknamed "the coffin," or something like that, and continues to have a presence through the whole war.  Same goes for the P-39. The I-16 and I-153 are both numerous straight into the middle of 1943.  Even when you get to 1944, most VVS fighters are going to be Yak-9s (not the U) and La-5s (not the FN).  It seems like the percentage of latest-and-greatest aircraft is only about 5-10%, and what passes for an "average" fighter on the German side is far more preferable.

Offline campaign in IL-2 is not a valid source of info in this case. Only 75 I-16 and 86 I-153 were operational in mid 1942.
You may also take into account that Yak-1 and LaGG-3 in 1943 were quite different from what they were in 1941. La-5 FN was put widely into action in the battle of Kursk (July 1943). And in spring-summer of 1944 there was a massive re-equipment to La-7 and Yak-3. There were so many fighter planes available in VVS in summer 1944 that when Pokryshkin's squad (9th GIAP) received La-7 they still kept all their P-39 as a backup. The new P-63 received in 1944 were not even put into action but kept in reserve till the end of the war.

[Anaxogoras]

Offline campaign in IL-2 is not a valid source of info in this case.

Of course it's not an academic reference, but the aircraft types, locations, and time periods were extensively researched.  Moreover, the creators had access to a lot of Russian primary sources that remain untranslated.

Only 75 I-16 and 86 I-153 were operational in mid 1942.

I'm curious to know, then, how we explain the I-153's appearance over the Gulf of Finland in 1943.  We are to presume the VVS kept a mere 86 obsolete aircraft operational for that long?

The new P-63 received in 1944 were not even put into action but kept in reserve till the end of the war.

This is another disputed point.

[Wmaker]

I'm curious to know, then, how we explain the I-153's appearance over the Gulf of Finland in 1943.  We are to presume the VVS kept a mere 86 obsolete aircraft operational for that long?

Anaxogoras, sorry if I mislead you a bit with that comment earlier. It was meant kind of as an extreme example. The statement itself is totally accurate but it might have given you a bit of a misleading view regarding the whole front. By mid 1943 VVS had only 36 I-153s left in service. Of those, most were based with the Black Sea Fleet but ten were still based at Lavansaari island base in the Gulf of Finland. They were facing 190s of the JG54 from the southern coast and Finnish Lentolaivue 34 with 109G-2s from the northern coast. They were replaced with a unit flying Yak-1s soon after. While the Soviet aircraft industry was already on fairly good speed by mid '43, there still were those couple locations where there weren't enough first line fighters for all the frontline units.

Here's VVS fighter strenght for March '44:

P-39--------528
P-40---------92
Hurricane----158
Spitfire-------52
Yak-1/1b----711
Yak-7/7b----797
Yak-9D/9T---665
LaGG-3------294
La-5--------1055
MiG-3--------121
Misc.---------64

As can be seen, it doesn't separate different subvariants. And as aper says, type '41 plane and '43 are different. But, no matter how one looks at it AH needs the lesser variants of the Yak and Lavotshkin fighter families for a somewhat accurate Eastern front planeset.

[Tilt]

To sum up the results: Yak-1 (earliest), MiG-3, LaGG-3 (hybrid), La-5 earliest + Yak-9T converted into hybrid (Yak-9 with different load outs)

The Yak9M whilst a 1944 variant of the Yak9T gives the same approx engine and loadout as the Yak 9D but in the existing Yak9T fuselage.

[Anaxogoras]

Ok, thanks for the clarification wmaker.

[vonKrimm]

All things being equal-ish between the Yak-1, LaGG-3 and MiG-3; I'd rather see the MiG-3 in the game.  I know most will disagree as it is slightly worse than the other two in climb, turn and armament, but the other two don't so outclass it in any areas as to make it nonviable in its proper time period.  The Yak-7 seems to fit into the "we want it, but not critical for the VVS planeset to be complete" category.  The Pe-2/Tu-2 issue has me equally divided: the former is faster & more agile and has more scenario potential, the latter carries more ordnance and would be more suited to the MA play style; climb rate seems to be close to one another, either would be nice. 

[Kweassa]

The problem with the Mig-3, despite the support from vonKrimm or aper, is that it lacks the specific aura of 'representativity' which a certain, central line of fighters for a certain specific WW2 combatant nation holds.

What I mean by this - compare it with side by side with the RAF Spitfires or LW 109s.

Currently, it can be said that all the major/most representative variants of the Spitfires and 109s are introduced in AH2. The list of these fighters keenly matches the timeline at which point those specific fighters were considered the most representative, and even 'iconic' fighters of the given period.

The rivalry between the RAF and LW is represented with this current line up AH2 holds, starting from late 1940 to 1945.

Starting from the BoB in 1940
the Spit1 : 109E pair of 1940...
then it comes to Spit5 : 109F pair of '41...
Spit9 : 109G2 of '42
Spit8 : 109G6 of '43
Spit16 : G14 of '44
... and Spit14 :  K4 of '45

Every advancement in aircraft from one side of the Channel, brought forth a match from the other side, and as a result the list the Spitfires and 109s, as the backbones of the RAF and LW repectively, become historically most representative line of fighters for both countries during each time period during the war - and this selection of fighters is what AH2 currently shows.

My contention, is that the Yaks and the LaGG/La line of fighters, are in the same league as the Spitfires in their rivalry against the LW fighters, in a warring front which started from 1941 and ended in 1945. It is only fitting that the Yakoblev Yak, and LaGG/La line of fighters get a full representation according to each of the time period which marks significant advancement in aircraft evolution, just as the Spitfires or 109s, 190s and etc.. got the same treatment.

Besides, the Yaks and La/LaGG fighters were the backbone of the VVS, the most important fighters in historical representativeness.

Thus, I think that the 'matchup' should be noted in the following manner;

1941: Bf109E : Yak-1/7
1942: Bf109F/G-2 : Yak-1B
1943: Bf109G-6/Fw190A-5 : Yak-9/LaGG-3/La-5
1944: Bf109G-14/Fw190A-8 : Yak-3/La-5FN
1945: Bf109K-4/Fw190D-9 : Yak-9U/La-7

It is only after the two backbones of the VVS, the Yaks and Las, get a full representation that matches the respectable lineup of the Spitfires, 109s, and 190s, that I think the other, less-representative-but-interesting options such as the Migs, should be considered.

[-aper-]

The problem with the Mig-3, despite the support from vonKrimm or aper, is that it lacks the specific aura of 'representativity' which a certain, central line of fighters for a certain specific WW2 combatant nation holds.

.....

1941: Bf109E : Yak-1/7
1942: Bf109F/G-2 : Yak-1B
1943: Bf109G-6/Fw190A-5 : Yak-9/LaGG-3/La-5
1944: Bf109G-14/Fw190A-8 : Yak-3/La-5FN
1945: Bf109K-4/Fw190D-9 : Yak-9U/La-7

It is only after the two backbones of the VVS, the Yaks and Las, get a full representation that matches the respectable lineup of the Spitfires, 109s, and 190s, that I think the other, less-representative-but-interesting options such as the Migs, should be considered.

1941 without MiG-3 is like Battle of Britaine without Hurricane. MiG-3 was a backbone of VVS in 1941.

Your timeline is not quite correct : Yak-1B (M-105PF) comes  late 1942 and can not be representative for 1942. La-5, La-5FN, La-7 and Yak-9U come earlier then you mentioned.

1941/42: MiG-3, Yak-1 (M-105) and LaGG-3 (M-105)
mid 1942: La-5 (M-82)
late 1942, 43: Yaks (M-105PF) and LaGGs (M-105PF)
mid 1943: La-5 FN (M-82FN)
mid 1944: La-7, Yak-3, Yak-9U (M-107)

[Karnak]

I don't recall that the MiG-3 was ever the backbone of the VVS.

[Masherbrum]

The problem with the Mig-3, despite the support from vonKrimm or aper, is that it lacks the specific aura of 'representativity' which a certain, central line of fighters for a certain specific WW2 combatant nation holds.

What I mean by this - compare it with side by side with the RAF Spitfires or LW 109s.

Currently, it can be said that all the major/most representative variants of the Spitfires and 109s are introduced in AH2. The list of these fighters keenly matches the timeline at which point those specific fighters were considered the most representative, and even 'iconic' fighters of the given period.

The rivalry between the RAF and LW is represented with this current line up AH2 holds, starting from late 1940 to 1945.

Starting from the BoB in 1940
the Spit1 : 109E pair of 1940...
then it comes to Spit5 : 109F pair of '41...
Spit9 : 109G2 of '42
Spit8 : 109G6 of '43
Spit16 : G14 of '44
... and Spit14 :  K4 of '45

Every advancement in aircraft from one side of the Channel, brought forth a match from the other side, and as a result the list the Spitfires and 109s, as the backbones of the RAF and LW repectively, become historically most representative line of fighters for both countries during each time period during the war - and this selection of fighters is what AH2 currently shows.

My contention, is that the Yaks and the LaGG/La line of fighters, are in the same league as the Spitfires in their rivalry against the LW fighters, in a warring front which started from 1941 and ended in 1945. It is only fitting that the Yakoblev Yak, and LaGG/La line of fighters get a full representation according to each of the time period which marks significant advancement in aircraft evolution, just as the Spitfires or 109s, 190s and etc.. got the same treatment.

Besides, the Yaks and La/LaGG fighters were the backbone of the VVS, the most important fighters in historical representativeness.

Thus, I think that the 'matchup' should be noted in the following manner;

1941: Bf109E : Yak-1/7
1942: Bf109F/G-2 : Yak-1B
1943: Bf109G-6/Fw190A-5 : Yak-9/LaGG-3/La-5
1944: Bf109G-14/Fw190A-8 : Yak-3/La-5FN
1945: Bf109K-4/Fw190D-9 : Yak-9U/La-7

It is only after the two backbones of the VVS, the Yaks and Las, get a full representation that matches the respectable lineup of the Spitfires, 109s, and 190s, that I think the other, less-representative-but-interesting options such as the Migs, should be considered.

I was the 1st one in this thread to mention the Mig-3.   

[-aper-]

I don't recall that the MiG-3 was ever the backbone of the VVS.

It was in 1941. MiG-3 was put into mass production earlier than Yaks and LaGGs. All the production lines of Aircraft Factory No1 in Moscow (The most advanced and powerfull in the Soviet Union at that time)  produced the new MiGs. 3,100 were built in 1941.

[Fencer51]

Well three P-39Qs added in the next skin update anyway.. 

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,266750.0.html

[Tilt]

Mig 3's key role historically was the defence of Moscow toward the end of 41.  The skies of course still belonged to the LW but the Mig 3 did successfully interdict/intercept higher(well high by 1941 standards) level LW bombers attacking Moscow and its suburbs/manufacturing facilities.  Of course it found itself on other various escort duties during this period.

However with key Yakovlev and Lagg productions facilities "on the move" or sufferring plant commissioning delays the No 1 plant was the largest that was kept in production generating the highest production of any plant during the GPW during August 41 after equally significant production figures in June and July.

The VVS enjoyed a form of air superiority over Moscow during early December 41. This however was not due to air combat attrition but indeed freezing temperatures grounding LW aircraft.

In summary the Mig 3 (and the weather) played a significant bomber interceptor role over Moscow during the period Sept - Dec 41. 

By march 42 it was generally being assigned to rear "defence" units in favour of Yakovlev's and even the must disliked Lagg3. By the end of 42 the only forward unit still utilising Mig3's was based in Stalingrad where the front had basically moved to it!