Spixteen Wish...(Just for a month)

[Karnak]

Edit: For clarity, it has been proven time in and time out that plane performance has absolutely no impact on use or effectiveness in the MA, see P38 J/L.

You posted that before and yet it has neither ever been demonstrated, let alone proven.

Post the proof or shut up.  FYI, you're wrong about it.

I don't expect any response from you as you like to ignore challenges to your claims.

[olskool2]

You posted that before and yet it has neither ever been demonstrated, let alone proven.

Post the proof or shut up.  FYI, you're wrong about it.

I don't expect any response from you as you like to ignore challenges to your claims.

Umm... I'm not sure exactly what you want me to post as proof.

F4U1C holds a higher K/d over F4U4, but the 1C gets used for more.
 Much better performing fighter gets consistently beat by the fighter with more firepower, while being flown more often (by a substantial margin). Why?

P38J holds K/D over the L, even though the L is used more.
 Probably as close to exact same planes as you can get holding different K/Ds. In this example, the more used plane has a lower K/D, opposite the F4U series example. Why? Simply because of how they are used in the game.

And what's up with the 'post the proof or shut up' line? Do you write your whole post to sound like you're passive aggressive on purpose or is it unintentional? I need proof.

[BnZs]

And despite all your blathering about it, it continues to neither dominate numerically nor in effectiveness.

Which, as Olskool has already pointed out, is meaningless. (See the stats of the P38J vs. the P38L. Obviously the 38J is the better airplane, right?) Especially considering that the Spixteen is a prime choice of both clueless noobs and people attempting to up under the vulch/semi-vulch. In the latter case, the plane's superior performance actually *worsens* it's MA record since it will be used against impossible odds precisely because people upping in that situation want every advantage they can get. By comparison, The Fw-190A5 actually has a better k/d ratio than the SpitXVI...while doing nothing better, EXCEPT being flown by fewer noobs and in an er, um, "safer" manner, and not being upped under the vulch.

Karnak, your ceaseless hostility gets a little old. I try to keep things civil, state facts, and you do things like accuse me of "blathering". I could give voice to my thoughts about incredibly shallow and idiotic it is to base the perk/ENY system on a lowest-common denominator popularity contest. But even though I have no real obligation to respect the ideas of those who think perk prices should be determined American-Idol style, instead of actually attempting to determine at what the best fighter planes are and pricing them accordingly, I am generally polite enough to not come right out and say so. You know, unless prodded.

[BnZs]

1v1 fights don't take into all the contingencies of Eny though.  Take for example, the Bf110G2 eny 10.

Okay, augment the testing with some 2v2 and/or 3v3 contests then. That'll give appropriate weight to the advantage of top speed.

110G2 is higher than that of the Fw-190D9 and the 109 Kurt? That is literally insane.

EDIT: The 110G's ENY being higher continues to blow my mind...you mean that if Dastrdly, while flying a 110G kills me, kills my 109 K, he'll actually get *fewer* points than I will for doing the reverse?!?!?!....that is so       that it actually becomes        

[Anaxogoras]

I'm not trying to sound condescending, but again, I don't understand why the Spit XVI aggravates so many people.  If someone could explain this to me, I'd be obliged.

You agree that some of the ENY values for planes are way off, right?  Like maybe the P-47N or the 109K-4?  Some people see the same issue with the XVI, i.e. it's about as good as some planes that are perked, but it doesn't have a price tag.

Personally, I'd rather see the price tag come off a few planes to rectify the imbalance, and if I had to pick one, it would be the XIV.

[olskool2]

Okay, augment the testing with some 2v2 and/or 3v3 contests then. That'll give appropriate weight to the advantage of top speed.

110G2 is higher than that of the Fw-190D9 and the 109 Kurt? That is literally insane.

EDIT: The 110G's ENY being higher continues to blow my mind...you mean that if Dastrdly, while flying a 110G kills me, kills my 109 K, he'll actually get *fewer* points than I will for doing the reverse?!?!?!....that is so       that it actually becomes        

Yup. But the 110 is used more.

[BnZs]

Yup. But the 110 is used more.

Yeah...we should let the mishun' lemmings and history-channel-said-the-P-51-wuz-the-best-ever types define a plane's worth for us.

[olskool2]

Yeah...we should let the mishun' lemmings and history-channel-said-the-P-51-wuz-the-best-ever types define a plane's worth for us.

 

I'll give it to HTC, or whoever in particular did try to balance the ENY, there's a lot of variables to consider when working for gameplay balance and they came up with a pretty good system. But, I think it's been talked about enough to warrant a little attention to the discrepancies.

Edit: I want Karnak to poast moar.

[grizz441]

Okay, augment the testing with some 2v2 and/or 3v3 contests then. That'll give appropriate weight to the advantage of top speed.

110G2 is higher than that of the Fw-190D9 and the 109 Kurt? That is literally insane.

Obviously in the scope of a 1v1 fight, yeah the Fw and K4 can easily just rope the Bf110 and then slash it down.  But the 110G can carry some decent ord, is devastating in a horde, and has enough ammo to easily rack up 20 lemming kills per sortie.  Of course with that logic the 190A8 should also be Eny 10 or 15 since it is so ruthless when it just picks from the horde.  There are discrepancies for sure.   

[BnZs]

Obviously in the scope of a 1v1 fight, yeah the Fw and K4 can easily just rope the Bf110 and then slash it down.  But the 110G can carry some decent ord, is devastating in a horde, and has enough ammo to easily rack up 20 lemming kills per sortie.  Of course with that logic the 190A8 should also be Eny 10 or 15 since it is so ruthless when it just picks from the horde.  There are discrepancies for sure.   

So your argument is that a 110G can rack up many kills strafing the runway with 20-1 odds?. Grizz, what CAN'T rack up a lot of kills doing that? 

[Karnak]

Umm... I'm not sure exactly what you want me to post as proof.

F4U1C holds a higher K/d over F4U4, but the 1C gets used for more.
 Much better performing fighter gets consistently beat by the fighter with more firepower, while being flown more often (by a substantial margin). Why?

I have never seen a tour in which the F4U-1C had a higher K/D ratio than the F4U-4.  I'll grant it is possible, but it is not the usual standing.

P38J holds K/D over the L, even though the L is used more.
 Probably as close to exact same planes as you can get holding different K/Ds. In this example, the more used plane has a lower K/D, opposite the F4U series example. Why? Simply because of how they are used in the game.

That is nothing like proof of your claim, in fact it is evidence of the opposite.   The P-38J has a better K/D ratio because it is used by a smaller number of dedicated P-38 fans rather than by the masses who just grab the P-38 with the "highest" letter when they want a P-38, or worse, use one as a cruise missle.

Karnak, your ceaseless hostility gets a little old. I try to keep things civil, state facts, and you do things like accuse me of "blathering". I could give voice to my thoughts about incredibly shallow and idiotic it is to base the perk/ENY system on a lowest-common denominator popularity contest. But even though I have no real obligation to respect the ideas of those who think perk prices should be determined American-Idol style, instead of actually attempting to determine at what the best fighter planes are and pricing them accordingly, I am generally polite enough to not come right out and say so. You know, unless prodded.

I have gotten thus because you ignore any and all data that doesn't agree with your predetermined conclusion, coming up with excuses as to why the data is wrong or invalid.  True, you aren't Krusty making up stuff wholesale, but you still ignore actual results in favor of theory.  What is the point of even refering to data when your conclusion is already know?  It is like talking to a young earth creationist.


Is the Spitfire Mk XVI an superlative fighter?  Absolutely.  Nobody that I know of says it sucks.  Is it imbalancing?  Well, that is a much more "organic" question.  Sure, to my prefered ride it is a nightmare, but so are a good number of other aircraft I can mention, but is it to the arena as a whole?  What advantage is there in perking it?  It isn't dominating usage or K/D numbers and that means that regardless of its potential in the hands of an expert it is not having an excessive effect on the aircraft it is double superior to.  The reality is that nothing about the Spitfire Mk XVI's performance in or effect on the MA remotely justifies perking it without also perking a whole slew of other aircraft, including the bread and butter P-51D.

So your argument is that a 110G can rack up many kills strafing the runway with 20-1 odds?. Grizz, what CAN'T rack up a lot of kills doing that? 

Spitfire Mk I.   

[grizz441]

Bnz, it's true that you are pretty hard headed about points you make.  You never concede defeats, not even small ones in arguments.  You don't even acknowledge strong arguments, only your own as the end all be all.

As for the 110 you're right it probably shouldn't be Eny10 but it can turn decent and with those guns, maybe a more adequate Eny would be 25 along with the mossie... Or the mossie and the bf110 should be eny20.  It's all open to interpretation.

[Vudak]

EDIT: The 110G's ENY being higher continues to blow my mind...you mean that if Dastrdly, while flying a 110G kills me, kills my 109 K, he'll actually get *fewer* points than I will for doing the reverse?!?!?!....that is so       that it actually becomes        

I wouldn't mind having a separate system for perk points and country balance.  I'm not sure it's that important, but it couldn't hurt.

[Vudak]

You agree that some of the ENY values for planes are way off, right?  Like maybe the P-47N or the 109K-4?  Some people see the same issue with the XVI, i.e. it's about as good as some planes that are perked, but it doesn't have a price tag.

I think that the ENY values are well above my head, personally.  They seem strange until I really try and see both sides of the issue, and then I end up deleting my post

[BnZs]

I have never seen a tour in which the F4U-1C had a higher K/D ratio than the F4U-4.  I'll grant it is possible, but it is not the usual standing.
That is nothing like proof of your claim, in fact it is evidence of the opposite.   The P-38J has a better K/D ratio because it is used by a smaller number of dedicated P-38 fans rather than by the masses who just grab the P-38 with the "highest" letter when they want a P-38, or worse, use one as a cruise missle.

Karnak, your explanation makes it perfectly clear how such stats can be warped by "cultural" factors and thus make it a perfect demonstration of the unreliability of such stats.

I have gotten thus because you ignore any and all data that doesn't agree with your predetermined conclusion, coming up with excuses as to why the data is wrong or invalid.  True, you aren't Krusty making up stuff wholesale, but you still ignore actual results in favor of theory.  What is the point of even refering to data when your conclusion is already know?  It is like talking to a young earth creationist.

Look, maybe I'm not making myself clear. I don't CARE if a SpitXVI is taken up 99% of the time by a blundering noobs who barely maintain a 1:1 k/d or if the P-38J is flown 99% of the time by experts racking up k/d's and k/s's of 5+. I don't CARE if the Spit16 or any other plane gets 75% of kills/deaths or .75% per tour. The only thing I see as important about a free plane is how it stacks up to the other free planes as a fighter. I have the odd notion that perks/ENY should be about the actual value the plane brings to its operator, not its name recognition among noobs or its "coolness factor" amongst vets.

So if you think I'm calling you a liar when you mention stats about usage or k/d, don't worry, I'm not. I just don't see them as reliable indicators of anything important.