Dueling Arena squads disbanded

[BnZs]

PS - Oldman, I wasn't justifying the ganging, I was simply saying it exists...in both arenas.  In my mind that is as much a part of this game as sand traps are to golf...if you can't or don't want to hit out of sand traps, don't hit the ball in the sand.  Its risk/reward my friend.

At times it is almost literally impossible in both arenas to avoid being a part of either a Many v. one or a One v. many. The happy medium between the two is a hell of a lot harder to find than the fairway!!!

[moot]

With all due respect Moot, as a trainer, and by proxy a leader in this community, I find it curious that you take "sides" on this discussion.  Both the MA and DA have the same, but different things to offer to new and senior pilots alike and I would think, and Im just spitballing here, that you would take that track when maintaining a form of "moderator" in this discussion.  Please don't say your not moderating it because your position here at HTC defaults that to you.  It seems odd to me that you don't perpetuate the benefits of both arenas and choose to sow those benefits among your potential students in a positive discourse.  That is just my observation sir and that is not a representation of any other trainer.

In truth, because of where someone chooses to fly makes them no better a pilot and I have been ganged, as has everyone here, in both places.  Furthermore, it's curious to me that if the people that do not like the DA and claim they care nothing for their scores why be concerned with the gangbanging?  If you care nothing of your score or landing victories, a horde presents more targets of opportunity for them and getting victories should be easier for the better pilots.  For instance tonight I watched 1 pilot take out 6 pilots that I believe to be very good sticks...internet superpilot award winners? Probably not but good sticks....and at one point he was runnin.  It was some of the best flying I have ever seen in here.

Maybe "score" should be changed to ego...which I would understand more than someone saying they ignore their "scores".

  KlunK
  Batfink
  Flushed

PS - Oldman, I wasn't justifying the ganging, I was simply saying it exists...in both arenas.  In my mind that is as much a part of this game as sand traps are to golf...if you can't or don't want to hit out of sand traps, don't hit the ball in the sand.  Its risk/reward my friend.

You're reading too much into it.  I'm not taking sides for the DA or MA.  Both have their good and bad, and I point out both in both.  That's not bias, on the contrary.  Pretty much every student I've had, I directed to the DA when what he needed most was trigger time.  No doubt about that.  If you understand my posts as I mean them, and I'm fairly sure they're clear, the main fault with the DA that stops it from being as good as it could be with a small effort, is the neglect for fair fights.  Specifically, running after a single con (I said this above but I'll repeat it) when it's outnumbered 3+ to 1, and there's more cons coming elsewhere if one had the patience to fly in that other direction for at most 1 minute.
If you get anything like Batfink is insisting is between the lines of my posts, you're reading way too much into it.  If you don't believe me, look up any of my posts on this in the dozens of discussions we've had in 10 years on this forum.  You'll find the same argument, and not just from me.   

Also, ganging in the MA can somewhat be justified by the strategic framing of the arena.  In the DA there's no such thing.  The point of the DA which you and others imply, is the fight.  The quality of fights.  Which ganging, when you could just let a 2:1 alone instead of piling on to make it a 5:1, doesn't help.  Like I said above, letting a 1:1 or 2:1 go on till there was room in it for you would be a win win for everyone. 

And I'm not moderating anything here.  If anything I try to help catalyze good discussion that goes straight to the bottom of disagreements.  The reason I flash my badge is because Batfink is looking to stir things up.  It's what he's been doing for a while and I'm just not going to get into that because to back it up I'd have to quote PMs of his and that's against the rules. 

[mechanic]

That bold in the quote from my post is out of context. It refered to specifically the duel with you, in the context of a long day when I might have fun playing the game but not sitting in front of a computer monitor as playing the game requires.

I dont even understand what that means, moot. You would make a good politician.

You did not see your own wise message the first time i quoted you, i hoped you would. I will bold it out for you so you may find a hidden message as to why the more you try to be in control of how people fly the less it will happen the way you wish.

...[snip] I can't make myself give up hours of sleep that I absolutely need to be fresh the next day, so I can play a game that I'm not even having any fun with.  That might sound rude but that's exactly what it is. The kinda thing that the harder you force someone to do, the least he's gonna want to do it.

[moot]

Again saying stuff I never said nor even think.  I don't want to be in control of anyone.  But you keep saying it.
This is going nowhere quick.

[mechanic]

So what exactly is your point then? If you dont want to control how people fly in the furball arena why are you typing historical references like this:

Seems that knowing only the present DA makes it really hard to imagine the old DA.  In the "old" DA:
1)  You had the same guys basically, except with less non-purist players.  
2)  You spent about the same amount of time to find a fight.  Since there was no, or next to no, race to altitude/demeasured positional advantage, the fights were pretty much at airfield altitude and down.  Also, killshooter hadn't been disabled yet, so you could FFA furball right off a field.  One of the usual patterns was everyone off the top left fields where you could spawn southwards, turn the plane around, and just drop off the top of the airfield to the furball that was right below that cliff edge.  
3) See above.  No need to grab.  The only thing you needed to do was look for a lone dot.. Because back then most everyone followed the common courtesy rule of chk6-ing before engaging.
4) I doubt this didn't happen more back then.  Almost no one was so busy landing kills and making squads to get kills against a threat (in the technical sense) of ganging that didn't exist, no one was trying to prove anything by landing kills when they could instead put up a real fight.  Effectively, all the players at the lake were one big informal squad.  Nowadays there's zero discernment between a tempest doing the pure BnZ pick thru a low and slow furball or picking the RTBs or the AFKs that don't even know the Tempest is there, and the plane that actually beat a gaggle of 5+ on his own.  Someone might say this is elitist, but it's not.  It's simple statment of fact, nothing to read between the lines.
5) No difference.  You wanted duress, you just set it up with someone else.. Say announce that you were in X plane and would like to have Y plane(s) against you.. No doubt someone would've consented.

 The only thing that has changed is killshooter was disabled. The furballing zone has zero impact on the dueling fields. I was in the 'old DA' 4 nights a week for a long time before it changed. I can honestly say this map has more to offer. The only thing that is different is the killshooter. That is a small price to pay to add a furball zone.  If you keep ducking questions one has to draw one's own conclusions.


Question for anyone, not just moot, alot of people seem to be on the DA furballer's backs right now.

If not control, what is your point to being so concerned about people and how they have fun in the furball zone?

[boomerlu]

So what exactly is your point then? If you dont want to control how people fly in the furball arena why are you typing historical references like this:

Maybe moot just wants to reminisce. Not EVERYTHING has an ulterior motive. From my reading of this, moot has been far less judgmental than some others. A lot of conversations I have could be interpreted to be highly adversarial arguments, but if you know me, you'd know that most of these conversations are actually very logical point/counter-point affairs where both sides are open minded and trying to figure something out. Knowing this, I give moot the benefit of the doubt when he tells us that everything he says is at face value.

Honestly mechanic, I don't know why you are being so defensive. Keep in mind, I fly in the DA too. What do you care what others think of how you fly? I will justify something if I believe there is a solid reason for it, but I do so simply to inform not to defend myself. For an oversimplified example, when others complain about picking, I explain that I find picking legitimate b/c wing tactics are just organized picking. That's simply how some fighters were meant to be flown. If someone doesn't buy into that, then they probably won't listen to reason so I don't bother arguing anymore. I just ignore them.

[TnDep]

You're reading too much into it.  I'm not taking sides for the DA or MA.  Both have their good and bad, and I point out both in both.  That's not bias, on the contrary.  Pretty much every student I've had, I directed to the DA when what he needed most was trigger time.  No doubt about that.  If you understand my posts as I mean them, and I'm fairly sure they're clear, the main fault with the DA that stops it from being as good as it could be with a small effort, is the neglect for fair fights.  Specifically, running after a single con (I said this above but I'll repeat it) when it's outnumbered 3+ to 1, and there's more cons coming elsewhere if one had the patience to fly in that other direction for at most 1 minute.
If you get anything like Batfink is insisting is between the lines of my posts, you're reading way too much into it.  If you don't believe me, look up any of my posts on this in the dozens of discussions we've had in 10 years on this forum.  You'll find the same argument, and not just from me.   

Also, ganging in the MA can somewhat be justified by the strategic framing of the arena.  In the DA there's no such thing.  The point of the DA which you and others imply, is the fight.  The quality of fights.  Which ganging, when you could just let a 2:1 alone instead of piling on to make it a 5:1, doesn't help.  Like I said above, letting a 1:1 or 2:1 go on till there was room in it for you would be a win win for everyone. 

And I'm not moderating anything here.  If anything I try to help catalyze good discussion that goes straight to the bottom of disagreements.  The reason I flash my badge is because Batfink is looking to stir things up.  It's what he's been doing for a while and I'm just not going to get into that because to back it up I'd have to quote PMs of his and that's against the rules. 

Moot, I know you have quite a bit going on in the forum and some conversations with several people but I need more understanding of what you mean by this and why's ganging is justified in the MA.

My thing is you have this in the MA and if the MA was as condensed as the DA it would just be awful.  In the MA almost every fight I get in people Ho.  Most of the fights in the DA all the good pilots cold merge and we have an amazing time.  I guess the MA pilots are always going to talk smack about the DA like it's a black or white thing but it is what it is.  We try to provide knowledge of why the DA is for us and we get nothing from slander from some.  Moot this is not tended to be statements towards you just needing understanding on the bolded area of what you mean about that.  Thanks

[Changeup]

BnZ Sir!!

The happy medium on the fairway is a percentage shot with a club that won't get you trouble but advances the ball! LOL 

The happy medium in avoiding gangbanging (in my limited experience) is, as the movie Top Gun points out so vividly, "Nose hard-0ver, select zone 5 (after-burner) and escape....live to fight another day....Maverick, you made a poor decision"..LMAO!!  Works for me....

But then you have those hard working killers who dive into a horde for the sake of diving into a horde!!  You have to love those guys...

xxxJCxxx, Hombre, Dodger, Vegas.....watching those guys work is something to see

Anyway, thank you for the conversations...they have been enlightening.

Changeup

[cohofly]

I am fairly new to this game. I came from a far simpler flight Sim game, but grew dissatisfied with the quality of flight and fights. I happened upon AHII by chance, but have been loving it since I joined. I pretty much stick to the DA. I am in a squad, which I am grateful for being admitted. I am here to have fun.......... How I have fun is really only my business isn't it????.  The DA has allowed me to have that fun as well as gain experience and fly with/against people who are of the same mindset.
 
I guess the question I have to ask those who wonder about squads in the DA is..... What is more fun? Going to a football game with friends...... or by yourself? How about the bar or club? More fun alone or with a big group of people??? We have squads for the same reason as those in the MA... for the fun and enjoyment of friends.

I think one of the great things about the DA, (from a newbies perspective) is that I am able to fly many different types of Fighter/Attack planes.(perk and non perk). Find out how they handle. Find out which plane fits me best. All without the pressure of losing a base or watching your CV sink. Its pretty low pressure, and a newbie (raw) has his hands full just keeping head on straight at first. It allows a newer pilot to get in many sorties, to gain confidence then have that confidence taken away by a really good stick or some plunker diving in from 15000 ft. Either way you know that in four or five minutes you will get your chance to make amends.

Fun is fun people. But complining about how others have theirs seems really petty.

As a Squaddie and friend says  "It is.....what it is.



 

 

[BnZs]

What I'm saying is that at time it seems ALL you see are big globs of green with red guy in the middle or big globs of red with oneself in the middle.

It seems that tactics are mostly inapplicable. Begins an angles fight with a P-51D and a HurrIIC comes in. Try to extend away from a Zeke and a Dora dives in. Have something hanging at the end of the rope and higher bandits are diving in to pick you at the top. Put a bandit in a vulnerable position without other bandits around, you pick up lots of green "help" shooting over your shoulder. Begin a fight with a bandit in anyway whatsoever and 3 more take the opportunity to try and saddle. And this is the lake AND the MA.

BnZ Sir!!

The happy medium on the fairway is a percentage shot with a club that won't get you trouble but advances the ball! LOL 

The happy medium in avoiding gangbanging (in my limited experience) is, as the movie Top Gun points out so vividly, "Nose hard-0ver, select zone 5 (after-burner) and escape....live to fight another day....Maverick, you made a poor decision"..LMAO!!  Works for me....

But then you have those hard working killers who dive into a horde for the sake of diving into a horde!!  You have to love those guys...

xxxJCxxx, Hombre, Dodger, Vegas.....watching those guys work is something to see

Anyway, thank you for the conversations...they have been enlightening.

Changeup

[xbrit]

If you are all having fun what's the problem ??
It's a game we play for fun and we each get our fun in different ways.

[Shuffler]

I guess it would be easier to understand if the DA furball area had one base and not different sides.

A true DA furball arena would be all against all. As it stands it is the AVA with mixed plane sets.

[Masherbrum]

I guess it would be easier to understand if the DA furball area had one base and not different sides.

A true DA furball arena would be all against all. As it stands it is the AVA with mixed plane sets.

Bingo!  Someone else "gets it".

[boomerlu]

Moot, I know you have quite a bit going on in the forum and some conversations with several people but I need more understanding of what you mean by this and why's ganging is justified in the MA.

I don't speak for moot, but my guess is:

Every kill helps the strategic environment in the MA whether it's a gang kill or not. It eliminates a threat and allows the strategic game to progress closer to its end goal of taking bases. Whether you get a kill or not or if you get a good fight is immaterial so long as it "helps the team".

In the DA, the end goal is not to take any bases, therefore there is no real justification for ganging (beyond a somewhat reasonable 2:1 or 3:1). The goal is to fly in there, have a fight and get a kill. If you gang, then only one person is going to get the kill, and most of the gang will not be getting a fight.

[mechanic]

Bingo!  Someone else "gets it".

but why does that matter? If those regulars are having fun doing it, why should anyone complain?

Maybe moot just wants to reminisce. Not EVERYTHING has an ulterior motive. From my reading of this, moot has been far less judgmental than some others. A lot of conversations I have could be interpreted to be highly adversarial arguments, but if you know me, you'd know that most of these conversations are actually very logical point/counter-point affairs where both sides are open minded and trying to figure something out. Knowing this, I give moot the benefit of the doubt when he tells us that everything he says is at face value.

Honestly mechanic, I don't know why you are being so defensive. Keep in mind, I fly in the DA too. What do you care what others think of how you fly? I will justify something if I believe there is a solid reason for it, but I do so simply to inform not to defend myself. For an oversimplified example, when others complain about picking, I explain that I find picking legitimate b/c wing tactics are just organized picking. That's simply how some fighters were meant to be flown. If someone doesn't buy into that, then they probably won't listen to reason so I don't bother arguing anymore. I just ignore them.

I duly note what youre saying boomerlu, my original contribution to the thread was not directed at anyone specificaly, just the group of people who are complaining how the furball arena is used. Moot took on the argument and thus I directed my comments towards himself in reply to his comments. All I started out saying was i agree with Onan's post.