Author Topic: 109 torque initiated rolls  (Read 6879 times)

Offline transam1

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2009, 02:33:25 PM »
I believe this film shows what Boomerlu was talking about. The spin is completely controlled and as he said can be recovered by simply adding power and getting the nose low. If you watch from above or below the aircraft with trails on you see that there is 0 forward airspeed. Also the yaw rate is controllable to some extent by use of left rudder.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/yxmqn5ma4m5/109 spin.ahf
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 02:35:00 PM by transam1 »
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Offline maddafinga

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2009, 02:19:25 PM »
That film didn't work for me.  It would open, but everything looked like night, and it simply wouldn't play at all.  I think I know the maneuver well enough, because I use it too, but I'm looking for pointers to refine it some.  Any ideas on getting the film to work right for me?

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Offline VonMessa

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2010, 08:49:46 AM »
bump  (because 109's  :rock     )
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2010, 09:21:56 AM »
bump  (because 109's  :rock     )
:rofl I have to agree, I did just see that ardy always likes to roll left......makes you predictable, look at your opponents flight path to judge which way you wanna roll up top, the counter for the guy coming up(for me) is to pull to the side he isnt rolling towards :salute
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Offline Ardy123

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2010, 12:54:53 PM »
:rofl I have to agree, I did just see that ardy always likes to roll left......makes you predictable, look at your opponents flight path to judge which way you wanna roll up top, the counter for the guy coming up(for me) is to pull to the side he isnt rolling towards :salute

get a 109 k4/g14, go vert at under 100 mph, try and roll right quickly, see what happens ;) .... (yeah you can do it with a snap roll, but it can be a little less smooth).
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2010, 08:57:25 PM »
Ardy, cut throttle full right rudder and right roll......it will go over to the right. If it doesnt and is about to stall I push straight forward on the stick and flatten my nose to get airspeed
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Offline Qrsu

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2010, 10:25:16 PM »
Why not just roll left until you've rolled yourself over 270 degrees. Rolls a lot quicker under 100mph and sometimes tricks the guy following ya.  :) Sneaky sneaky.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 10:28:52 PM by Qrsu »
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2010, 04:11:56 AM »
Why not just roll left until you've rolled yourself over 270 degrees. Rolls a lot quicker under 100mph and sometimes tricks the guy following ya.  :) Sneaky sneaky.
Better Shot OP.....You roll right at the top slower you can position your nose to take a rolling left tator shot kinda like the one in Grizz's 30MM thread, Im telling you rolling left is harder if the enemy plane notices that all you do. Ill just go wide right on you everytime till you burn your E from doing the 270 rolls......from what I understand you burn more E upside down
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Offline Qrsu

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2010, 10:24:58 AM »
Won't dispute anything until I try out a few things to see what you mean. I always figured rolling against the torque burned more E than rolling with it though...

On another note, I just finally read the discussion at the top and now I have a few things to practice tonight after class. Thanks Agent.
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2010, 07:07:41 PM »
Won't dispute anything until I try out a few things to see what you mean. I always figured rolling against the torque burned more E than rolling with it though...

On another note, I just finally read the discussion at the top and now I have a few things to practice tonight after class. Thanks Agent.
You lose alt when you roll completely over too :aok
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Offline Agent360

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2010, 12:08:19 AM »
Why not just roll left until you've rolled yourself over 270 degrees. Rolls a lot quicker under 100mph and sometimes tricks the guy following ya.  :) Sneaky sneaky.

This is something hardly ever mentioned.

In a flat turn one circle fight where the bandit is behind your 3-9 line it is faster to reverse direction by pulling NOSE DOWN canopy and rolling. Typically we reverse canopy up. As in flying in a right hand turn, now you break hard the opposite direction. Normally you roll the plane left canopy up and pull to make the 180 deg turn. However, you reverse just as well if you do the very same thing but roll the canopy inverted and pull the turn. You doing the same thing. The first way you fight gravity. The second way you get a gravity assist.

Now, consider what is actually happening in a "tork roll". The pure verticle variant actually inverts your plane and swings the nose around to guns. This is the same thing as doing it in a flat turn except your not going for guns your going for an angle that closes to guns.

As for rolling right in a 109..no problem.
The trick is to stall the low wing by yawing the nose with hard right rudder and pulling back on the stick. The plane will snap over to the right. You only want to snap it partially. Enough to get the plane pointed off the right. Then roll in. You can actually do this with a full snap but its tricky.

The second way is to use the throttle. You really need to think ahead. Get your wep on a second or 2 before you maneuver. To turn you slam the throttle off, full right rudder, roll right and push the nose forward a bit.

When max tork is on the plane, immediatly cutting power jerks the plane to the right, You want to time this with your rudder and roll.

Also when your going verticle with wep on and you have to turn to the right start to roll to the right verrrry slighty and corret with opposite rudder. Kind of getting on the starting line for the start. If you already have the controls prepped and ready as soon as the bandit wings over the the right you can execute your right wingover almost at the same time.

Finally, when I am very very slow like approaching slow speed stall at less than 80 mph in rolling scissors I always reverse direction canopy down. I can roll my plane over inverted (via a tork roll or snap roll) but sometimes you can not roll your plane canopy up without going into a tail slide. You will be surprised how low to the ground you can be and still reverse canopy down. If you can tight barrel roll all the way down the runway 100 feet you can do it canopy down.

Now, if you have read this far I have little secret for you. Your gonna like this. Fly level at about 300 mph. Wep on. Pull the plane up to about a 75 degree climb....or almost strait up but not quite. Hit the SHIFT+X keys for "auto angle". let go of the stick. Let the plane climb until it power on stalls. Dont touch anything. After the plane begins to roll and stall ....DONT TOUCH ANYTHING....just keep watching....hehehehehe...repo rt back your findings. You will be surprised. Keep an eye on your gauges too (alt and speed)


Offline Qrsu

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2010, 11:43:48 AM »
I think I get what you're saying, hitting wep for two seconds before pulling off seems to rock the nose ever so slightly right. I did manage to get the right wing stalled and snapped it over 90 degrees no problem. Thanks for the info, it's gonna take some practice to get the hang of following the procedure, but I'll be working on it.

As for the experiment... I had two things happen.

1) First few times I had it climbing until it reached about 110-115IAS before (the left wing?) stalled out, flipped over inverted very cleanly then sort of split-Sed back upright in a very shallow dive almost 180 degrees in the opposite direction.

2) The next few times it seemed to roll a complete 360 degrees and climb leftward for a bit... then snapped over again... rinse repeat.

Both were really interesting.

Was in a G-14 btw.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 11:55:56 AM by Qrsu »
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Offline Qrsu

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2010, 11:53:28 AM »
Okay. I figured out why I was getting two different results. The first occurrence happens when climbing 45-50 degrees up. The second is closer to 90 (75-80ish).
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Offline Agent360

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2010, 03:05:14 AM »
Ok here is the deal

Films!!!!!

auto_1 - I climb from level at 300 mph to 80 deg up. Wep on. I don't touch anything. Notice the plane makes several rotations before recovering. Also notice that in all three films the plane recovers in the same direction it stalled from. Use my view and pay attention to where the sun is...this is important.

auto_2 -  This time I take the wep off as the plane stalls and rolls. I only use wep on and off. I am also going vert at about 250 instead of 300

auto_3 - Now for the surprise...which was not discovered....so far anyway.... Watch the gauges and listen to the throttle. As the plane stalls and rolls I pull the throttle off equal to the stall roll. As the plane rolls I match the roll rate with reduction of throttle. You will also notice that instead of rolling over 2 or 3 times I am able to totally control the plane using ONLY the throttle (and wep). I am able to make the plane roll only ONCE and climb again. Each time I climb higher and higher while maintaining speed.

The auto pilot is controlling the plane but I am controlling the tork of the engine..... :O :O :O :O :O

The purpose of this is to teach you how tork controls the plane. In these films I NEVER touched the stick...ONLY THE THROTTLE and WEP.

Try this for yourself....do it using the throttle to control the roll and climb of the plane.  After a few minutes you will see the light young grasshoppers.

auto_1.ahf

auto_2.ahf

auto_3.ahf

hehehe...pretty cool hea.

I do this sometimes in the MA over a hord. I just use the throttle to controll the reverse. If it doesn't look right I let the plane climb...if when I rev over and there is a target in guns I grab the stick and use rudder and throttle to dive right into guns and boooooooom.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2010, 03:31:08 AM by Agent360 »

Offline Sonicblu

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Re: 109 torque initiated rolls
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2010, 09:44:28 AM »
Hey agent thanks for all the help.

do you have any films of you using this in a dog fight?

Im trying to understand better when to use it, and maybe how to set it up.

I had a film of you doing this move to me where you come right though my cockpit and killz me with a tater. I just cant find it.

Ive been working on the move but cant get enough seperation and the other guys usually nose up making it more of a vert ho move for me.

Thnks.