Author Topic: Let's make bombing a skill again :) (Read 2271 times)

Jekyll · « **on:** November 13, 2000, 03:57:00 AM »

Not wishing to detract from our buffing brethren, but I'm sure even they would admit that bombing is a little too easy at the moment.

So lets put the skill back in bombing!

Instead of just 'put the crosshairs on the target and let fly', why not force bombadiers to manually input the aircraft's current altitude and ground speed into the Norden? By itself this would introduce a little dispersion into bombing, and the greater the height, the greater the error due to incorrect speed/alt inputs.

I don't know if the real Norden needed manual inputs, but for sure the analogue instruments of the '40s couldn't correctly calculate AGL and ground speed to the exact foot and MPH respectively.

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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/phoenix
Aces High Training Corps

juzz · « **Reply #1 on:** November 13, 2000, 05:42:00 AM »

I thought about the same thing, but considering that AH instruments probably are perfect it would really have little effect on bombing accuracy.

It might make bombers more vulnerable once they are on their bomb run though, as the pilot can't really manoeuvere.

I believe the following inputs were needed from the bombadier when using a Norden sight:

Air speed
Altitude
Wind speed
Wind direction
Drift
Ballistic coef of bombs

Then he had to aim and hold the sight crosshairs on the target, while an analogue computer calculated the bombers path from his aiming inputs and fed info to the autopilot, which flew the plane into position and the bombs were then dropped automatically.

As you can imagine, losing sight of the target would ruin the accuracy of the drop as the bombadier would have to guess where to aim the crosshairs.

What AH has is a magical CCIP sight which constantly shows the exact impact point if the bombs were released at that very moment.

Westy · « **Reply #2 on:** November 13, 2000, 08:03:00 AM »

I like it. It might not make much of a difference for a one-pass bomber pilot but it sure would make it more realistic and interesting for those who have to make a second and a third trip back through the target.
As it is now once the base is in sight all the pilot has to do is go to the bombadier sight and fly the bomber to the exact target they want to hit. Miss or get interfered with by enemy aircraft then all they do is a hard turn hit F6 asap and line up again. Not so with this suggestion. It would really give weight to being a good bombardier in aH if you actually had to do even some of what a real bombardier had to. I'm all for it. Grand idea!

-Westy

Gadfly · « **Reply #3 on:** November 13, 2000, 08:24:00 AM »

Real Bombadiers didn't have to pilot the plane, navigate, gun and maintain comms. If you are going to de-automate the bombing process, you need to automate some of the others.

Besides, the stuff the bombadier input was simple to do requiring only time. Why would that increase the bombers fun?

juzz · « **Reply #4 on:** November 13, 2000, 08:24:00 AM »

Westy; how would having to enter airspeed/altitude make much difference on a second or third pass? I think all it would mean is a little more time to stabilise speed after the 180º turn...

Like I said before, I think all this would really do is make bombers even easier targets on their bomb run.

Westy · « **Reply #5 on:** November 13, 2000, 09:09:00 AM »

How? Because most bomber runs I see in the MA constitute a first pass followed shortly by a hard banking turn 1.5-3k out and a re-run back over the base....rinse, repeat. Untill they are either shot down or they have run out of bombs.
As it is bombing doesn't take much skill. As Jekyll pointed out. By having to at least manully enter this kind of info the bomber pilot would need to be a bit more skilled AND wily than your typical pork&run pilots we have now.
Maybe bombers are just side dishes, as vehicles are, to a central fighter world here.

Too many times I've seen a good time furballing between two bases by tow opposiung sides get ruined by one, solo moron who takes a Lanc or B-26 in and wipes out the FH. With no further ability or intention of capturing the now "porked" base. So now anywhere from 6 to 20 folks who were having fun now have to find it elsewhere, due to the self centered actions of a lone individual. But had there been some complexity ot bombing. Said bomber dOoD, who's on day 11 of his two week freebiue, may have had to take more time to line up a run and in the mean time could be intercepted.
Make it a skill is all.

-Westy

Zigrat · « **Reply #6 on:** November 13, 2000, 09:53:00 AM »

Westy,
You are wrong that bombing doesnt take much skill. There are bomber pilots out there who you can depend to take the target down fast, then there are tose who will take 10 minutew to de ack a field. I fall in the latter category

But I think its kinda insulting to our experten b17 drivers outthere to say it isn't a skill

Eagler · « **Reply #7 on:** November 13, 2000, 10:16:00 AM »

Bombers are fine as they are. It forces the fighters to pay attention to them.

Eagler

Westy · « **Reply #8 on:** November 13, 2000, 10:42:00 AM »

Zigrat, my apologies to the guys who love bombers. I did not mean to specifically insult them.
My point was that literally anyone walking off the street can bomb successfully, if they know the keys for the controls.
Some guys like CavemanJ and Beefcake are the best. They do have skill, and they would be the best even if bombing was more complex.

I think I'm posting too much and adding my .02 into too many topics.

I never ment to insult anyone who flies bombers. Even though my choice of words can be misconstrued and end up having a different impression and inflection than intended.

Jekyll? This one's all yours. Good luck

Sorry for the tangent I spun it out onto.

-Westy

juzz · « **Reply #9 on:** November 13, 2000, 10:50:00 AM »

Hmmmmmm...

What info does a bomb-aimer have, and need?

Gauges:
Air speed
Altitude

Weather report:
Wind speed
Wind direction

In the air:
Drift - I think this was calculated from the above info by a simple computer, in RL?

1. The major factor is going to be the wind, which would have to be reported by a weather report.
2. Some error would enter in the reading of the gauges because they aren't that clear to read.
3. The weather report could be made to be slightly off, in order to deliberately reduce bombing accuracy.
4. Possibly introduce weather recon sorties for appropriate aircraft(eg: Mossie), the successful completion of which would increase the accuracy of the weather report for a while.

I'd also like to see the two different types of bombsights and their aiming methods represented:
1.Tachometric(Norden) - more accurate in clear conditions and high altitudes
2.Vector(What AH has) - better at low altitudes and in poor visibility

All of that doesn't require much more in terms of skill, but it would make bombing more inaccurate I think, as it introduces the possibility of error, when currently there is none.

SKurj · « **Reply #10 on:** November 13, 2000, 11:25:00 AM »

Leave the bombers alone.

SKurj

Gadfly · « **Reply #11 on:** November 13, 2000, 05:26:00 PM »

Westy. You may be right about bombing in AH. I haven't done enough online to say one way or the other. But about Warbirds, we have had this same discussion, and I have to say that your point is not valid.

Someone who "knows the keys" may be able to hit something, sometimes, but can he close a field by himself? Can he hit a moving ship from 10,000? Fly NOE for 200 miles and not smack the ground(that one is tough, there, buddy)? Dive bomb, torpedo and, yes, even skip bomb?

As I stated on the AGW, I had a 5 kill sortie long before I closed a small field in 2 passes.

Dropping bombs, like killing what flys in front of your guns, requires no skill. The skill is in the flying that allows you to complete the bombing with precision and speed.

flakbait · « **Reply #12 on:** November 13, 2000, 05:36:00 PM »

Gadfly, I have flown across the ENTIRE Med map NOE in a Typhoon offline and not smacked anything. I'm not talking E-W I'm talking N-S, and I've done the same thing in both the Sfterr and BETA maps. Luzon, all versions too. NOE flight isn't hard when you know what you're doing.

As for bombing. That's an easy one; give AH the same bomb dispersion ATF Gold had. You'd be lucky to hit a field from 30k unless you dumped everything you were carrying. ATF Gold may have been a bad sim, but the bomb dispersion was killer. If my copy didn't crash every 15 minutes, I'd post a screen shot of a B-52 dumping Mk. 82s from 20k. By the time those bombs are down to 10k, they spread out equal to the wingspan of a B-52. Could be a bit overboard, but it's great watching 80+ 500lb bombs walk across a field!

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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School
Whattaya mean I can't kill 'em? Why the hell not?!

[This message has been edited by flakbait (edited 11-13-2000).]

sling322 · « **Reply #13 on:** November 13, 2000, 05:42:00 PM »

I for one am almost strictly a bomber pilot in the MA. I havent learned to fly fighters effectively yet.....although I can manage to get a random kill in a Chog or a Niki

It would be interesting to find out how many of you who are complaining about bombers have actually flown them for any length of time. Its hard enough staying alive to return to base in a bomber much less having to worry about inputting all that info. Others have said it in this forum and in others as well....if you make the bombers harder then you wont see them in the air anymore.

funked · « **Reply #14 on:** November 13, 2000, 07:10:00 PM »

There is a serious lack of bomber units in AH. I don't think making their aiming job more difficult is going to help this situation unless some other tasks are automated as Gadfly suggested. It would be fun to have a 100% realistic Norden model, but operating the Norden while flying the plane and manning the guns is not possible.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 11-13-2000).]