Let's make bombing a skill again :)

[-lazs-]

but skurj.... 10 buffs hitting 10% each would close it.   Or 5 buffs making two passes each or 2 buffs making 5 passes or...  They may not get every single target (a realistic result by anyones standards) but that many bombs would render it pretty ineffective for a time or... easily captured.

my thots.... A lone suicide buff should not be able to close or seriously limit a field

Oh, can you please define "furball" for me?   It appears that some feel that anytime fighters fight each other it is a bad thing?
lazs

[This message has been edited by -lazs- (edited 11-19-2000).]

[TheWobble]

Skurg, the overaccuracy is a DISADVANTAGE for buffers in a way,

Buffers HAVE to aim every single bomb because they will not drift apart if ya just crap out a salvo over the target, they will just make a perfectly straight line across field, no matter what your alt they will land the same,  with a realistic drift you could salvo 12 bombs from 22k and they would land randomly in and about the perimiter of the base and sometime they would kill ALOT and sometime just a few acks, if you wanna drop from 35k...well you better aiming at an entire city you STRATOUBERTARD!  
I would MUCH rather barf all my bombs over the target and know that they will drift apart and pepper the target nicley, plus it would look much cooler. I may not get as many hits all the time but at least i didnt have to AIM EVERY SINGLE BOMB.

[TheWobble]

My definition of furballing is the following:

whenever fighter just flys to 10k and slug it out in the middle of no where for no real reason. then they just go look for another fighter, they are not clearing airspace for a goon or bomber or providing fighter cover for ground forces. they are just looking for some FFA Love.


 Nothing wrong with that in and of it self. its jsut that when im flying my 17 headed for the enima HQ and ask for fighter cover i get no help because all the fighters are buisy playing with themselves  ( I dont mean that in a nasty derogitory way) When was the last time any of you buffers got an escort anywhere? what were the fighters doing? yes all 40 of them were in this big ball resembling the maiting habits of the Mayfly nymph.

[-lazs-]

wobble... in the end, fighters allways were there to fight other fighters.   The pretense of escort and attack of buffs was simply to kill fighters.   most fighter missions and personal missions were, to kill other fighters.   It was and is an end unto itself.

Why can't you get escort?   Escort is boring.  We don't play to be bored.  Sorry about that.   So what do you suggest?   You can force escort by making the whole emphisis of the game..... bombing by lone or few bombers.  This is of course hugely unrealistic.   Or, as we do... You can make bombers have an unhistorical and lopsided effect on the fighter war.   If you go with either of these, as we have, then you will have to expect some animosity from the majority of fighter pilots who see bombers as mostly just a pain in the butt.   No fun to escort and no fun to attack with too much affect on the game.

I feel the effect of bombers in the game is lopsided.   I feel they should have less effect on the fighters.   I would be glad to hear what you think should be done and what kind of balance you think would be realistic and fair.
lazs

[SKurj]

I have the cure...  leave buffs alone

By having to aim every egg it permits a fighter to sneak up and attack while the buff is aiming.  If he opens fire well likely he will have to make another pass, which buys the fighter more time to set up a better attack, and possibly more fighters to reach the area.
We don't see that many buffs in flight at any time.  The lone buffs that reduce a fields effectiveness are usually part of an attack force that has the intent of capturing that field anyways.  By upping from that field you risk being vulched etc anyways.
I find buffs don't take much away from the fighter war at all.  Watch the arena for a few days and see how often a buff just wanders around porking fighter hangars of bases not under attack.

AKSKurj

[LJK Raubvogel]

Oh c'mon Skurj, you know all the buff drivers are just out to "ruin everyone's fun"    

------------------
LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps

[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 11-20-2000).]

[-lazs-]

skurj... maybe i am wrong.   I can only go by what i see prime time as a knight.   The close fields are allways either closed or fuel limited and there is radar only about half the time.   I would say that those things greatly affect the fighter war.   I see lone suicide bombers every single night don't you?   I see bombers hitting ack from 20+ K   with a single bomb.   You son't see these things?
lazs

[SKurj]

I see buffs hittin ack from 20k+ sure, but how does that detract from the fighter war?
A buff doing that is likely prepping a field for an attack anyways.
The close bases being porked, well perhaps it is your team not paying attention.  A lot of the time in the MA, you have a couple of bases to up from on the front line.  I've not had a problem yet finding a base close to the action to up from, with any loadout I wish.

AKSKurj

[TheWobble]

If the bombs would disperse and drift the higher the alt like i have suggested, bomber will not be able to affect the fighter  war so drasticaly.  they wont be able to come over at 35k and hit every hangar and shut down a field, they will have to drop a salvo and head home, they will still do stuff but it will vary from alt to just plain luck of the fall.

I thinkthat simpley fixing the "bomb dispersion problem" as i have often herd it called. would solve many problems

NO more 35k sniping
NO more dropping all hangars in 10 min

They WILL still do much damage if they drop their but it will be more like this.

Insted of
1 buff run =
all hangars dead
all ack dead, field disabled.
everything else iintact

It will be
1 buff run =
2 or 3 guns dead
1 hangar gone
a few fuel/ammo hit
some damage on runway

Ya see, there wont be any less damage it will just be spread areound to where the field is still usable but yet the bomber accomplished his mission (BOMB THE FIELD)

Of course 1 Lancaster dropping 14 1000pounders randomly within the perimiter of a field would still probably still render the field pretty screwed up.

my vote is to fix the bombs, make them historically accurate, its probably an easy thing to fix and it FOR SURE wont worsen any kind of problem, and might just fix a few.  needs to be done anyway, bombs falling PERFECTLY straight and landing PERFECTLY spaced from ANY alt exactly the same is pretty ridiculous.

Sorry for being so wordy.

[SKurj]

No buff in the game is able to drop all ack and all hangars on one mission.


AKSKurj

[-lazs-]

skurj... last night... A5 and A28  good long fighter war until... a lone bbuff ruins it.  Now, I don't know which side or what players were happy about this but I can't believe that anyone involved was.   I see this time after time.   If a lone buff can kill the ability of fighters to take off then there is something wrong.  

wobble has the best solution i have seen so far.   I would also go so far as to say that fighters should be available all the way up untill the field is closed.   Fuel should never get down to 25% and radar was and should be allmost impossible to completely dissable.
lazs

[TheWobble]

A lancaster loaded with all 14 1000's can pretty much level a medium field, it cant kill BOTH all ack and hangars but i could could kill ALL of one and MOST of the other,

I fly buff %100 of the time and of course there being NO dispersion or bomb drift I HAVE to aim every single bomb, so what do I aim for? hangars of course! If i can pick every target im gonn hit ill will pick the important stuff, do I like having this choice?   NO!, BIG FAT NO!!!  It really kills the game play. as soon as the bomb drops I know what will happen, i dont even need to bother looking.
I would like it much more if I came cruising over target and clickclickclickclick..etc an 8 bomb salvo away.  I go to outside view and watch as the bombs fall and spread out, anxiously waiting to see what my trip has yealded. Then pop, pop  popopopop little creaters spatter all over the place around and within my target area... as i fly away I see the smoke rising from my hit targets.....  AAAHHH *sigh*

call me a romantic, but which would you prefer?

[Midnight]

-lazs- I don't know who you are, but I really think maybe you should just go play Quake or something. What is the point of just dogfighting all day and not trying to kill a base? Are you going to start whining when a P-47D-30 kills your fuel? WHAAAA!!!! What about tanks and Ostwinds? Should those go away also? What are you going to do when 1.05 comes out and the battlewagons start pounding the beach? You are just not seeing that fighter planes are only around for air-superiorty. That is to stop Bombers and scout planes and other gound attack planes from affecting the ground war. Quit whining about about bombers, if you don't like them, shoot them down!

Wobble, I would much rather escort a buff to target than just fly into an endless dogfight that goes no where. If you are Bish, let me know when your planning a mission, I'll escort you BOTH ways.

I am one who would also like to see bombs with more realistic damage effects and not have to AIM every one before dropping, but until that happens, bombers have to drop on something.

Tell you what -lazs-, why don't you go fight at one of the backfields somewhere. Afterall, fighters fly a lot faster than buffs do, so they can get further quicker.

What I would really like to see is historical type missions, where I can fly my P-51D escorting buffs. It makes it so much better because there is a teamwork effort and enemy fighters trying to shoot at bombers are so much easier to kill.

And one last thing.. -lazs- if you would shoot down your own countryman because of your own self-centered agenda, I call you a coward!


------------------
"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"

Midnight
13th TAS

[sling322]

I now have a new mission in the Main Arena.  Just because of lazs statements, I will dedicate myself to the utter destruction of any and all Knit fighter hangars that are close to the Rook front.  I will get great joy from knowing that I, alone in my buff, will be "ruining his fun."  So, lazs....look for me in a Lanc or B17 over a fighter hangar near you.  

[This message has been edited by sling322 (edited 11-22-2000).]

[TheWobble]

Hey guys, lets not go for personal attacks on lazs or anyone else, we all have our opinion.
I mean lazs is a full time fighter so of course his gut tells him bombers are EVIL and that any work HTC puts into them is a total waste, to him yes it actually is a total waste.  I cant begrudge him for his feelings.  Besides if there were no bomber haters I wouldent have all the fun I have gunning  

I used to want a superfortress and other stuff, but that is a little selfish and would be too much work to "waste" on a bomber.

I realize that most people fly fighters and I too agree that more work should be put into them than buffs...

But cmon how hard can it be to just make the bombs fall dirrerently?
I dont ask for much, I dont bash fighters Im a good person, my only wish is to fix something that will benifit EVERYONE. I love this game and if id didnt feel that what i am suggesting is a good and worthy cause I would remain silent regardless of my pesonall interests, but as you know I am not alone in my opinion of this matter.