Let's make bombing a skill again :)

[Jekyll]

 

[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 11-24-2000).]

[juzz]

What's needed is a realistic bombsight, not some bogus gameplay-motivated "bomb drift", if you want to affect bomber accuracy. That will force them to either salvo the lot to try and hit one target from on high, or come in lower to ensure accuracy. Of course, a highly skilled bombadier might be able to put his bombs in a pickle barrel from 30k.  

[TheWobble]

"BOGUS GAMEPLAY MOTIVATED BOMB DRIFT"!

have you ever thrown frigin rocks at something?
does EVERY single one of them hit in the EXACT same spot no matter how far away you are?

Have you ever bombed in AH, If you drop 12 bombs from 35k and then 3k they will land EXACTLY the same, in a PERFECTLY straight line, perfectly spaced out no matter what!
You think THAT is realistic?

Let me draw an analogy here..

OK say your in your fighter on the runway, you aim at a target 20 miles away, but you dont have to aim above or anything because the bullets dont drop they just fly PERFECTLY straight no matter how far gravity and wind has no effect on them. also as soon as the first bullet hits the target you cant tell anymore because every shot after it is going through the hole the first bullet made.  That sound realistic to you?

Thats EXACTLY how the bombs are modelled now.


Altering the bomb sight because the bombs are not modeled right is like.  changing the gravity because a plane climbs too fast.

If you made the bomb sight less accurate and a bomber salvos off bombs they will STILL land perfectly straight and evenly spaced, just not exactly where the crosshair is.  

I just dont understand why you would rather change something that has no real problem to compensate for something that is:
A: completly screwed up in the first place.
B: easyer to fix.
C: would make the game more realistic.

Fix the bombs and you wont need to make the sight less accurate.  In ww2 b-17's hardly aimed with the nordern sight and it WAS VERY accurate but still they just aimed right in the middle of a cluster of whatever they want to hit because the bombs scatter and disperse so no matter if it was aimed perfect or not they still didnt know EXACTLY where they would hit.

[juzz]

So the current bombsight is a perfectly accurate representation of a WW2 era bombsight huh?

[TheWobble]

No of course its not, it shouldent be able to zoom like that.  

but the innaccuracy of the bomb sight pails in comparison to the inaccuracy of the bomb modeling.  I think the bombsight should be less accurate too, but not untill the bombs are fixed.  If you fix the bombsight first it will be next to impossable to hit anything, however if you make it less accurate AFTER the bombs are fixed it will just add to the realness of the inhernent  inaccuracy of the falling bombs.

Juzz I in no way disagree with you that the sight needs to be changed, but I feel the bombs are the biggest part of the prob, the sight accuracy is just iceing on the cake.

[TheWobble]

Juzz, ok I think ive got a good coagulation between our ideas of what needs to be done.

OK here goes.

Make the bomb sight less accurate, by making it misjudge EACH AND EVERY bomb differently, as in if you drop them all at onec (which is what your supposed to do) the sight will be a little off (or alot depending on alt) for Each bomb diferently, as in say you salvo 3 click click click  maby bomb1 will be off to the front left of where the bomb sight says bomb2 will be off to back right2, bomb3 will be even with target but a little to the right.... and so on and the higher ya get the more off they become.

Do ya get waht Im saying, I dont know if i Explained it well.  But that would fix it and it would use BOTH of our ideas.

What you think?

[-lazs-]

midnight... i don't know who you are but why don't you just leave and go play a board game somewhere?    No?   Coward?  LOL  brave little toejam on the internet aint ya?

sling... thank you.   I think you can do more for my cause than anyone.  Get started right away.

wobble.   I have had this arguement many times in other sims also..  You are the first dedicated buffer who explained the situation without dancing around the real problem.   I completely agree that if the buffs are capable of inflicting unrealistic damage then it is not the fault of the buffer and that he would be some kinda moral paragon to not do it.  I believe that you may have gotten my point... There should be no reason  why a friendly fighter would want to shoot down his own buff.... The fact that this is the case means something is wrong.   We know what that is.    The way the war is "won" and the effect that bombs have on an airfield and their accuracy all contribute to making buffs a joke.  

I don't know what the solution is but I think you have a partial one.   I'm not sure that any sim with only 100 or so players on three teams can even find a realistic place for 4 engined bombers.   Along with your suggestion...I would, and have, suggested that huge cities be built that took hundreds of tons of carpet bombing to level.  When the city is ded then the "war" is over.  The long amount of time and effort needed to level these "cities" would give people a chance to participate in bomber interception or escort.  The "furballs" might actually be high alt melees involving the escort or interception of bombers.    

All we can do now is adjust accuracy and field strength one way or the other..... asuring that on group or the other is pissed.
lazs

[juzz]

All I want is for bomb accuracy to be dependant on the SKILL of the bombadier.

Either that, or give me a magical deflection-calculating gunsite, 'cause my ata gunnery SUCKS!  

[LJK Raubvogel]

Wobble, what is this mysterious "bomb drift" you keep speaking of? You ever seen an actual bomb drop? I've seen quite a few B-52 drops, and guess what, the bomb craters were pretty much in a straight line.

Sling, think I'll put my fighter in the hanger for a while, and help ya "ruin the fun." lol

------------------
LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps

[Jekyll]

 

There should be no reason why a friendly fighter would want to shoot down his own buff.... The fact that this is the case means something is wrong.

Unless of course the person wanting to shoot down his own buffs is certifiably insane.

Hmmm, now who was it said he wanted to shoot down his own buffs?  

Oh, it was lazs.

Maybe the buffs ARE alright?

[TheWobble]

LJK Raubvogel

For one thing the bombs being dropped form b-52 are designed better to be more aimable, ww2 bombs were much Fatter and shorter so the wind and such affected them much more,

second:
NOTE you said Pretty straight.
the ones in HA fall PERCECTLY straight and they land PERFECTLY spaced no matter how high up you are. in real life dropping bombs from 35k no matter how well aimed they would go all over the place and they certinly wouldent land exactly the same as they do for 1k.

[-lynx-]

 

Wobble, what is this mysterious "bomb drift" you keep speaking of? You ever seen an actual bomb drop? I've seen quite a few B-52 drops, and guess what, the bomb craters were pretty much in a straight line.

Rab - look at some WW2 bombsight footage - you'll see exactly what thewobble is on about. There was absolutely no straight lines there but a wide dispersion of a salvo unloaded from a single bomber.

lazs - stop arguing with thewobble - you're both after the same thing: to stop a single bomber screwing the fun for all from 35K. Granted, you want it for different reasons but it still the same idea - more realistic buffs .

------------------
lynx
13 Sqn RAF

[-lazs-]

vicious lie!   I was never actually certified.

wobble... watcha think, will sling and raubie help their case or mine?
lazs

[TheWobble]

Laz...HUH? wht you speeka?

Anywho, I have noticed that alot of what people are arguing me this on is the fact that there is a VERY low ratio of buffs to fighters in the MA so thats why they need to be as accurate as they are..Ok i conceede that is a valid point..so here is what i propose.

Make Bomb drift a host option and have it scaleable.. Like wind, or manueverkill range or down time or everything else.

.drift 0 no bomb drift (like now)
.drift 1  1ft of drift for every 100 feet fallen.
and so on and so on.

This would be good for 2 reasons.
1: if people REALLY dont like the way it in the MA they can ask HTC to turn some drift on for like a day and then ask people which they prefer on the BB and if most eerybody like it with no drift leave it off,  that away everyone can have their cake and eat it too.

2.for the H2H folk!
there is a much highter ratio of bombers to fighters in h2h than in the MA, in the MA bombers to fighters migh be something like 1/25, HOWEVER in H2H with  far less players it is often 1/1 or 1/2 in which buffs are WAY too powerful and accurate for the amount of fighters they will encounter and the fact that if a buff kills a field in H2H its pretty much over. So the host just sets some drift to where the bombs are inaccurate to where it takes 3 or 4 runs to really mess up a field.

I think that is a good way to make EVERYONE happy.

People who dont want change: well they dont get change  THEY ARE HAPPY

People who DO want change: well they Do get change and THEY ARE HAPPY

People who are not sure: well they can try it both ways and decide wich one they like and then no matter which one they pick....THEY ARE HAPPY.

thoughts?

[SKurj]

You are at last seeing the light Wobble +)

Your proposal for host selectable drift is a good idea.  For scenarios where formations of buffs will not need to neccessarily hit a specific building, just get the eggs on the field, dispersion is good.

Ya got my vote

AKSKurj