Author Topic: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?  (Read 48433 times)

Offline Masherbrum

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #465 on: September 09, 2009, 07:59:52 AM »
i wonder if these guys even know what variable valve timing does?  :D

Die Hard?   No.   Die Hard is the type of person that doesn't get his hands dirty and pays others to do it.   There are many of us who have have worked on a lot of cars and know what to expect.    Heck, I'm only 36 and the most difficult brake job I ever did was in my Freshman year of HS in Autp Shop class.    Our principal had a Series III Jaguar XJ6.   The inboard rotors took me 3 days/classes to complete on my own.   It was a learning experience for me at 14 years of age.  
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Offline CAP1

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #466 on: September 09, 2009, 08:02:00 AM »
Die Hard?   No.   Die Hard is the type of person that doesn't get his hands dirty and pays others to do it.   There are many of us who have have worked on a lot of cars and know what to expect.    Heck, I'm only 36 and the most difficult brake job I ever did was in my Freshman year of HS in Autp Shop class.    Our principal had a Series III Jaguar XJ6.   The inboard rotors took me 3 days/classes to complete on my own.   It was a learning experience for me at 14 years of age.  

i did a set of them once. just once. a loooooong time ago. never again.  :rofl

i bet as soon as he decides to answer, he'll hit google, and we'll see a quote straight from some website or another, explaining vvt to us. hope he gets it right.  :aok
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Offline Saurdaukar

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #467 on: September 09, 2009, 09:07:27 AM »
Oh - y'all met DieHard in here, too, eh?

He's a peice of work that one - fun, though.   :aok

Better go read the thread.  Bet hes talking about Hondas or something.

Offline eddiek

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #468 on: September 09, 2009, 09:19:18 AM »
Same ole DieHard, Mazz........lol!  He and BigPlay have been edumacating us on how superior European cars are compared to American ones.
The overall impression I get from both of them is that if it's American, they hate it.  If it's European, especially of German manufacture........it's the best thing since sliced bread, innovative in every way, superior in every way to everything American.
Asteroid headed towards Earth?  No problem, we'll contact Porsche!  They'll send up a car to deal with it.

Seriously though, I do get that impression from both of them.  Neither of them has stated it outright, but I get the impression that they look down on ALL things American, ya know?


Actually, I WOULD like to see DieHard define what he is referring to as new technology?  And be specific about what he considers "old technology" in American cars, especially the powerplants.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 09:22:02 AM by eddiek »

Offline Die Hard

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #469 on: September 09, 2009, 09:20:09 AM »
THAT statement just made the point i've been trying to make to you for the last 3 pages.......ohc technology is not new.


allison was using ohc before rr i think(although i'm not sure)

No, over head cams certainly isn't new technology, so why you mentioned it in the first place is rather puzzling. I certainly never claimed it was new. If you think I did please quote me.

What part of my post back on page 28 did you not understand?

Pushrod and classic OHC are both obsolete technologies. I'm talking computer controlled variable-timed valves with hydraulic lifters. Some would say that those aren't even "modern" anymore since the japs and euros have been using them since the early 90s. Honda V-Tech, BMW Vanos etc.


my camaro was dyno'd to 820 hp. at 6400 rpm.

sure, you can get that same power from a 2.0 turbotoy. at about 8k to 9k.

why in the world would i want to run an engine that high if i don't have to?

Why in the world would you not run an engine that high if you can? How much HP would your Camaro produce if you could safely rev it to 9000 rpm? The answer is a lot more.


the cobra was a completley different car than the ace.

Irrelevant. Both the Ace and the Cobra were designed and produced by AC Cars.


i don't believe you originally said computer controled fuel injection. you only said fuel injection.

You're wrong. Check for yourself and quote me if you think otherwise.


correct. and the body shape and original unmodified frame was.


the drivetrain, powertrain, and suspension(i think) was all ford built.

No it wasn't. Only the engine (and possibly the gear box) was Ford.

"Production proved to be easy, since AC had already made most of the modifications needed for the small-block V8 when they installed the 2.6 litre Ford Zephyr engine, including the extensive rework of the AC Ace's front end. The most important modification was the fitting of a stronger rear differential to handle the increased engine power. A Salisbury 4HU unit with inboard disk brakes to reduce unsprung weight was chosen instead of the old ENV unit. It was the same unit used on the Jaguar E-Type. On the production version, the inboard brakes were moved outboard to reduce cost. The only modification of the front end of the first Cobra from that of the AC Ace 2.6 was the steering box, which had to be moved outward to clear the wider V8 motor.
Badge

The first 75 Cobra Mark I (including the prototype) were fitted with the 260 engine (4.2 L). The remaining 51 Mark I model were fitted with a larger version of the Windsor Ford engine, the 289 in³ (4.7 L) V8. In late 1962 Alan Turner, AC's chief engineer completed a major design change of the car's front end and was able to fit it with rack and pinion steering while still using transverse leaf spring suspension. The new car entered production in early 1963 and was designated Mark II. The steering rack was borrowed from the MGB while the new steering column came from the VW Beetle. About 528 Mark II Cobras were produced to the summer of 1965 (the last US-bound Mark II was produced in November 1964)."


define foe me "valve timing", and what affect it has on horsepower please?

Its effect is that it allows you to run an engine at high RPM without sacrificing low RPM performance. You could safely run your Camaro engine at higher RPM and not having to idle it at 3000.

"In 2001 BMW introduced the Valvetronic system. The Valvetronic system is unique in that it can continuously vary intake valve lift, in addition to timing for both the intake and exhaust valves. The precise control the system has over the intake valves allows for the intake charge to be controlled entirely by the intake valves, eliminating the need for a throttle valve and greatly reducing pumping loss. The reduction of pumping loss accounts for more than a 10% increase in power output and fuel economy."


BLOW DOWN
On the power stroke, the combustion pushes the piston down in the cylinder. During this stroke, it is necessary to open the exhaust valve before the piston gets to the bottom of the cylinder. This will allow the excess pressure in the cylinder to "vent out" just before the piston reaches the bottom of the stroke. The term "Blow Down" is used to describe this event.

Timing the exhaust valve in this manner assures no pressure is left in the cylinder to push against the piston on the exhaust stroke. Otherwise, there could be 20 PSI (or so) pushing against the piston as it starts up the cylinder. This would require some of your engine's power just to push the exhaust out of the cylinder.

High RPM engines need to have the exhaust valve open sooner so the pressure has a better chance to exit the cylinder. However, at lower RPMs, opening the exhaust valve too soon means you didn't take full advantage of the power stroke.

OVERLAP
As the engine cycles, there is a period when both the intake and exhaust valves are open at the same time. This valve timing is known as "overlap." Think of this as the exhaust and intake cycles overlapping each other.

The valves are timed so the intake valve opens slightly before the piston reaches top dead center (TDC) on the exhaust stroke. Likewise, the exhaust valve is timed to close just after the piston starts down on the intake stroke.

The objective of overlap is for the exhaust gas which is already running down the exhaust pipe, to create an effect like a siphon and pull a fresh mixture into the combustion chamber. Otherwise, a small amount of burned gasses would remain in the combustion chamber and dilute the incoming mixture on the intake stroke. This valve timing is a product of the cam's duration and separation specs. For more information on these cam specs see the Cam Specs & Effects page.

The science involved with overlap is quite complex. Pressures, runner lengths, temperature, and many other aspects influence how well the overlap effect works.

RAM EFFECT
When the piston reaches the bottom of the cylinder on the intake stroke, the intake valve doesn't immediately close at this point. The intake valve remains open even though the piston is starting up the cylinder on the compression stroke. The expression "ram effect" is used to describe this event.

Timing the intake valve in this manner allows an additional amount of fresh mixture to be rammed into the cylinder. The effect is very similar to water hammer in plumbing. What happens is that during the intake stroke the fresh mixture is running fast enough down the intake manifold and into the cylinder that it can not instantly stop when the piston stops at the bottom of the intake stroke. Just like the water hammer effect, the incoming mixture is rammed into the cylinder even though the piston may be starting up on the compression stroke.

High RPM engines can have the intake valve remain open longer to take advantage of this ram effect. However, at low RPMs, the ram effect is not strong enough and the piston will start to push the fresh mixture back out of the cylinder. Of all the different valve timing effects, this one can have the greatest impact on your engine's performance.


i just stopped by my old boss's shop the other night. he had his 2006 F650 tow truck up on stands. seems the turbo blew. the thing only has 120k on it too.

Then why didn’t he change it before it blew? Doesn’t Ford have a replacement interval on their turbos? I think that’s pretty common now. Turbos wear out just like fan belts and brake pads.


Die Hard is the type of person that doesn't get his hands dirty and pays others to do it.

You're absolutely right about that, even if it’s quite irrelevant.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 09:33:46 AM by Die Hard »
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #470 on: September 09, 2009, 09:21:12 AM »
Seriously though, I do get that impression from both of them.  Neither of them has stated it outright, but I get the impression that they look down on ALL things American, ya know?

Quite wrong. I'm just not into national masturbation like some people here.
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #471 on: September 09, 2009, 09:40:46 AM »
The underpinnings had already been replaced in order to shoe in the big block 427.  The body of the Daytona Coupe did not share any external panels with the original AC Cobra.  The body pan was replaced to allow the new body to fit.  One only has to look at the rear of the two cars to know there were drastic design changes made from the ground up.

Die Hard, yes, the AC Cobra was a modified Bristol body with different underpinnings, for the AC Cobra 427.  I have never argued the AC Cobra was not of "international" design.  The Daytona Coupes are a different animal.

the chassis, drivetrain and steering had indeed all been upgraded from the Ace to accommodate the Ford V8s, but by AC in Thames Ditton using parts from Jags, MGs, Triumphs and even the Beetle :o  even on the 427 MkIII the only US designed/sourced components were the engine and (I'm assuming) gearbox.

The Daytona Coupes used the very same rolling chassis (MkII leaf-sprung) including the main ladder chassis. they added subframes for rigidity and to support the new bodywork. there is no "body pan" as such, as its not a monocoque design. its a rebodied cobra, certainly not redesigned "from the ground up". In fact the bodywork for all except the prototype was actually done in Italy.

The Cobra was certainly not a modified Bristol body. it was entirely an AC design, although Aces did use a Bristol straight 6 until it was discontinued - hence the need for the Ford V8.


btw CAP you should get a decent book on the Cobra (even a glance at wikip would help)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 09:42:18 AM by RTHolmes »
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Offline CAP1

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #472 on: September 09, 2009, 09:44:56 AM »
No, over head cams certainly isn't new technology, so why you mentioned it in the first place is rather puzzling. I certainly never claimed it was new. If you think I did please quote me.

What part of my post back on page 28 did you not understand?you've been insuniuating all along that overhead cams are modern tech, and that overhead valves are not.


Why in the world would you not run an engine that high if you can? How much HP would your Camaro produce if you could safely rev it to 9000 rpm? The answer is a lot more.would you seriously consider revving 560 cubic inches to 9k?


Irrelevant. Both the Ace and the Cobra were designed and produced by AC Cars.


You're wrong. Check for yourself and quote me if you think otherwise.


No it wasn't. Only the engine (and possibly the gear box) was Ford.which were/are the most important parts......like i said..i THOUGHT the rear was. i couldn't imagine a british rear handling 600+ hp back then.

"Production proved to be easy, since AC had already made most of the modifications needed for the small-block V8 when they installed the 2.6 litre Ford Zephyr engine, including the extensive rework of the AC Ace's front end. The most important modification was the fitting of a stronger rear differential to handle the increased engine power. A Salisbury 4HU unit with inboard disk brakes to reduce unsprung weight was chosen instead of the old ENV unit. It was the same unit used on the Jaguar E-Type. On the production version, the inboard brakes were moved outboard to reduce cost. The only modification of the front end of the first Cobra from that of the AC Ace 2.6 was the steering box, which had to be moved outward to clear the wider V8 motor.
Badge

The first 75 Cobra Mark I (including the prototype) were fitted with the 260 engine (4.2 L). The remaining 51 Mark I model were fitted with a larger version of the Windsor Ford engine, the 289 in³ (4.7 L) V8. In late 1962 Alan Turner, AC's chief engineer completed a major design change of the car's front end and was able to fit it with rack and pinion steering while still using transverse leaf spring suspension. The new car entered production in early 1963 and was designated Mark II. The steering rack was borrowed from the MGB while the new steering column came from the VW Beetle. About 528 Mark II Cobras were produced to the summer of 1965 (the last US-bound Mark II was produced in November 1964)."


Its effect is that it allows you to run an engine at high RPM without sacrificing low RPM performance. You could safely run your Camaro engine at higher RPM and not having to idle it at 3000.

"In 2001 BMW introduced the Valvetronic system. The Valvetronic system is unique in that it can continuously vary intake valve lift, in addition to timing for both the intake and exhaust valves. The precise control the system has over the intake valves allows for the intake charge to be controlled entirely by the intake valves, eliminating the need for a throttle valve and greatly reducing pumping loss. The reduction of pumping loss accounts for more than a 10% increase in power output and fuel economy."


BLOW DOWN
On the power stroke, the combustion pushes the piston down in the cylinder. During this stroke, it is necessary to open the exhaust valve before the piston gets to the bottom of the cylinder. This will allow the excess pressure in the cylinder to "vent out" just before the piston reaches the bottom of the stroke. The term "Blow Down" is used to describe this event.

Timing the exhaust valve in this manner assures no pressure is left in the cylinder to push against the piston on the exhaust stroke. Otherwise, there could be 20 PSI (or so) pushing against the piston as it starts up the cylinder. This would require some of your engine's power just to push the exhaust out of the cylinder.

High RPM engines need to have the exhaust valve open sooner so the pressure has a better chance to exit the cylinder. However, at lower RPMs, opening the exhaust valve too soon means you didn't take full advantage of the power stroke.

OVERLAP
As the engine cycles, there is a period when both the intake and exhaust valves are open at the same time. This valve timing is known as "overlap." Think of this as the exhaust and intake cycles overlapping each other.

The valves are timed so the intake valve opens slightly before the piston reaches top dead center (TDC) on the exhaust stroke. Likewise, the exhaust valve is timed to close just after the piston starts down on the intake stroke.

The objective of overlap is for the exhaust gas which is already running down the exhaust pipe, to create an effect like a siphon and pull a fresh mixture into the combustion chamber. Otherwise, a small amount of burned gasses would remain in the combustion chamber and dilute the incoming mixture on the intake stroke. This valve timing is a product of the cam's duration and separation specs. For more information on these cam specs see the Cam Specs & Effects page.

The science involved with overlap is quite complex. Pressures, runner lengths, temperature, and many other aspects influence how well the overlap effect works.

RAM EFFECT
When the piston reaches the bottom of the cylinder on the intake stroke, the intake valve doesn't immediately close at this point. The intake valve remains open even though the piston is starting up the cylinder on the compression stroke. The expression "ram effect" is used to describe this event.

Timing the intake valve in this manner allows an additional amount of fresh mixture to be rammed into the cylinder. The effect is very similar to water hammer in plumbing. What happens is that during the intake stroke the fresh mixture is running fast enough down the intake manifold and into the cylinder that it can not instantly stop when the piston stops at the bottom of the intake stroke. Just like the water hammer effect, the incoming mixture is rammed into the cylinder even though the piston may be starting up on the compression stroke.

High RPM engines can have the intake valve remain open longer to take advantage of this ram effect. However, at low RPMs, the ram effect is not strong enough and the piston will start to push the fresh mixture back out of the cylinder. Of all the different valve timing effects, this one can have the greatest impact on your engine's performance.


Then why didn’t he change it before it blew? Doesn’t Ford have a replacement interval on their turbos? I think that’s pretty common now. Turbos wear out just like fan belts and brake pads.


You're absolutely right about that, even if it’s quite irrelevant.

i'll read the part of this post about vtec when i sit back up here for lunch. i just came up to write an invoice.

oooo...and bmw wasn't the first with variable valve timing. honda was.





















1983

 
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 09:49:45 AM by CAP1 »
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #473 on: September 09, 2009, 09:47:12 AM »
you've been insuniuating all along that overhead cams are modern tech, and that overhead valves are not.

No I have not. Quote me if you think otherwise, or shut up.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #474 on: September 09, 2009, 09:51:57 AM »
No I have not. Quote me if you think otherwise, or shut up.

oooooo...resorting to this? ya know you were, or you'd have never said that. everyone on here 'cept you and bp knows what you're trying to do.  :rofl :aok
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #475 on: September 09, 2009, 09:55:41 AM »
to put [485] horses in that car though, everything had to be changed, otherwise that ford power would've either broken every single suspension part in the rear, or simply twisted the car in half.

... which is exactly what happened when they dropped the 427 into it, hence why AC beefed up the twin beams of the ladder chassis and other components for the MkIII.



edit: btw CAP since you mentioned the Golf water pumps a while back I checked my service schedule and mine was replaced together with the cam belt, asked around and this is apparently SOP with VW specialists :aok
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 10:00:59 AM by RTHolmes »
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #476 on: September 09, 2009, 10:06:35 AM »
oooooo...resorting to this? ya know you were, or you'd have never said that. everyone on here 'cept you and bp knows what you're trying to do.  :rofl :aok

Quote me. I have never said nor insinuated that OHC technology is "new". In fact I have specifically stated it was obsolete.

"Pushrod and classic OHC are both obsolete technologies."

What part of this statement do you not understand?

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Offline Die Hard

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #477 on: September 09, 2009, 10:10:31 AM »
oooo...and bmw wasn't the first with variable valve timing. honda was.

Actually FIAT was the first, but that's ok. You've been wrong about so many things, one more isn't going to matter.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #478 on: September 09, 2009, 10:13:32 AM »
Actually FIAT was the first, but that's ok. You've been wrong about so many things, one more isn't going to matter.

when?
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Offline CAP1

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Re: What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?
« Reply #479 on: September 09, 2009, 10:15:06 AM »
Quote me. I have never said nor insinuated that OHC technology is "new". In fact I have specifically stated it was obsolete.

"Pushrod and classic OHC are both obsolete technologies."

What part of this statement do you not understand?



before you made this statement, you and bp both kept saying modern this, modern that.

if i felt like going back through 32 pages, i'd look for it.
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