What to get: 2006 Z06 or 2006 911 S?

[Die Hard]

The combustion process creates thermal energy and motion energy. Both kinetic energies. Are you by any chance... How can I put this delicately... Special?

[edog1977]

so what you're saying, is that if my 560 makes 820 hp at 6400 rpm, then at 12,800 rpm it'll make 1640hp?
 

hhmmmm........wondering about the highlighted part

That's a big if right there.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.   

[Die Hard]

so what you're saying, is that if my 560 makes 820 hp at 6400 rpm, then at 12,800 rpm it'll make 1640hp?
 

hhmmmm........wondering about the highlighted part

The answer is yes. Of course your engine would fly apart at that rpm... but that's a different matter.

Let's do some more examples that illustrate several different values of torque which produce 300 HP. Maybe you'll get it if I use practical examples (I can only hope):


Example 1:  How much TORQUE is required to produce 300 HP at 2700 RPM?

since     HP = TORQUE x RPM / 5252    then by rearranging the equation: TORQUE = HP x 5252 / RPM
Answer: TORQUE = 300 x 5252 / 2700 = 584 lb-ft.

Example 2:  How much TORQUE is required to produce 300 HP at 4600 RPM?
Answer: TORQUE = 300 x 5252 / 4600 = 343 lb-ft.

Example 3:  How much TORQUE is required to produce 300 HP at 8000 RPM?
Answer: TORQUE = 300 x 5252 / 8000 = 197 lb-ft.

Example 4:  How much TORQUE does the 41,000 RPM turbine section of a 300 HP gas turbine engine produce?
Answer: TORQUE = 300 x 5252 / 41,000  = 38.4 lb-ft.

Example 5:  The output shaft of the gearbox of the engine in Example 4 above turns at 1591 RPM. How much TORQUE is available on that shaft?
Answer: TORQUE = 300 x 5252 / 1591 = 991 lb-ft. (ignoring losses in the gearbox, of course).

The point to be taken from those numbers is that a given amount of horsepower can be made from an infinite number of combinations of torque and RPM.

Are you learning anything yet CAP?

[Reaper90]

The answer is yes. Of course your engine would fly apart at that rpm... but that's a different matter.

You know, I'm scratching my head trying to figure out if there has ever been an internal combustion engine with a perfectly flat, linear power curve......

[CAP1]

The combustion process creates thermal energy and motion energy. Both kinetic energies. Are you by any chance... How can I put this delicately... Special?

nooooo......kinetic energy is stored in a moving body.

thermal energy is the energy created by the combustion of the air/fuel mixture.

it took ya awhile to go back and read what i was tryin to get at.


so now we're getting there. the combustion process creates thermal energy, which creates torque, which creates power.

the torque moves your vehicle, and in so doing, creates kinetic energy, which is stored in the moving vehicle.
 
 if you use your brakes, that kinetic energy is converted back to thermal energy, in order to slow the car down.


oo oo.....i just got confusing now. i converted kinetic back to thermal.

 but then, we've been only really converting different energies all along.



this is almost as much fun as diving a p38 into a sea of spitfires.  

oo.....and although you're phrasing them nicely, the personal attacks(and yes, that is what they are) are proving you're running serious circles trying to find a way out of this.  

[CAP1]

That's a big if right there.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.   

well, that's why i laughed so hard. trying to spin my 560 to that rpm would put some of it in orbit. 

[Die Hard]

You know, I'm scratching my head trying to figure out if there has ever been an internal combustion engine with a perfectly flat, linear power curve......

Probably not, and a lot of factors limit the practical application of torque and RPM. Valves being one of the most important factors in getting an engine to rev high. At very high RPM you need some form of forced induction just to get the air and fuel into the cylinders fast enough. Increasing torque is in many ways the easiest way to increase power. Like adding a turbo.

[CAP1]

You know, I'm scratching my head trying to figure out if there has ever been an internal combustion engine with a perfectly flat, linear power curve......

i don't think so.....

[moot]

Nothin I have ever seen or heard done to 'em makes 'em sound good

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksckf0vN3zU&#t=0m50s

[Die Hard]

nooooo......kinetic energy is stored in a moving body.

A gas molecule is a moving body. Go back and read what I posted on different types of kinetic energies.

[edog1977]

You know, I'm scratching my head trying to figure out if there has ever been an internal combustion engine with a perfectly flat, linear power curve......

....on the other hand I can think of a few with a nearly linear torque curve.  

[CAP1]

The answer is yes. Of course your engine would fly apart at that rpm... but that's a different matter.

Let's do some more examples that illustrate several different values of torque which produce 300 HP. Maybe you'll get it if I use practical examples (I can only hope):


Example 1:  How much TORQUE is required to produce 300 HP at 2700 RPM?

since     HP = TORQUE x RPM / 5252    then by rearranging the equation: TORQUE = HP x 5252 / RPM
Answer: TORQUE = 300 x 5252 / 2700 = 584 lb-ft.

Example 2:  How much TORQUE is required to produce 300 HP at 4600 RPM?
Answer: TORQUE = 300 x 5252 / 4600 = 343 lb-ft.

Example 3:  How much TORQUE is required to produce 300 HP at 8000 RPM?
Answer: TORQUE = 300 x 5252 / 8000 = 197 lb-ft.

Example 4:  How much TORQUE does the 41,000 RPM turbine section of a 300 HP gas turbine engine produce?
Answer: TORQUE = 300 x 5252 / 41,000  = 38.4 lb-ft.

Example 5:  The output shaft of the gearbox of the engine in Example 4 above turns at 1591 RPM. How much TORQUE is available on that shaft?
Answer: TORQUE = 300 x 5252 / 1591 = 991 lb-ft. (ignoring losses in the gearbox, of course).

The point to be taken from those numbers is that a given amount of horsepower can be made from an infinite number of combinations of torque and RPM.

Are you learning anything yet CAP?

yea i am. i'm remembering things i've long forgotten. i'm learnign that you seem to be one of those guys that when you see a possibility of having to admit you may be not quite correct, you jump to another area.

 we all like to brag about our horsepower numbers. hell, people look at my camaro, and ask me what it'll run. i tell em it should go in the 8.90's at around 140-150mph. they then ask me how much horsepower it has. i tell em,,,,,,,,820 dyno'd.

but the horsepower does not move my car. it is a byproduct of making torque. by those formulas, i am making 673 lb/ft of torque. that is what moves my car. it's what moves your car. it's what moves every car on the road. torque. it's what's being multiplied by your transmission, and your differential. torque.

  7.3 powerstroke is a torquemonster. know why it;'s called that? because it'll pull a tree right out of the ground. yet i think they're only rated at just under 200hp. but they have torque out the arse.


now, as for making more power at higher rpm.......well.......there are several limiting factors, the least of which is whether or not the engine will stay together.
 less time for the flame front to travel. less intake duration. less exhaust duration. less time at full lift.

 then we can to to some minor mechanical problems. valve float. valve bounce(and yes i have seen evidence of it) bent pushrods. broken rocker arms. broken rocker arm studs. seized cam(ohc). followers popping out(ohc) wiped cam lobes(ohc).

 torque is what moves your car, and kinetic energy is the energy stored within, till you stop it somehow. when you hit another car, yours is releasing it's stored kinetic energy into that car, damaging it. if you didn't have this excess stored energy, you would do no damage.

jumping back to your f1 cars....you ever see em with the brake rotors glowing red? that's the cars kinetic energy being converted back to thermal energy.
 
 and i'm talking normal engines here, before you try to jump back to a vtec engine.


1966 Shelby GT350 - How To Rebuild A 289 Hi-Po

RPM    HP    TORQUE    FUEL LB/HR    BSFC
3,400    193.9    299.5    87.8    0.50
3,500    199.9    299.9    85.7    0.49
3,600    204.9    298.9    85.5    0.46
3,700    208.9    296.5    85.2    0.46
3,800    213.2    294.7    86.0    0.45
3,900    219.7    295.9    88.6    0.45
4,000    226.7    297.6    91.7    0.45
4,100    231.1    296.0    92.5    0.45
4,200    235.4    294.4    94.2    0.45
4,300    242.3    295.9    98.9    0.46
4,400    248.7    296.8    103.7    0.47
4,500    257.4    300.4    103.3    0.45
4,600    259.2    295.9    105.7    0.46
4,700    264.4    295.4    105.3    0.46
4,800    267.1    292.3    109.4    0.46
4,900    276.3    296.1    108.2    0.44
5,000    281.3    295.5    114.6    0.46
5,100    282.0    290.4    115.9    0.46
5,200    285.7    288.6    118.2    0.46
5,300    287.0    284.4    124.2    0.49
5,400    286.6    278.7    125.9    0.49
5,500    291.3    278.2    125.2    0.48
5,600    291.2    273.1    125.3    0.48
5,700    287.0    264.4    128.3    0.50
5,800    288.2    261.0    126.5    0.49
5,900    288.8    257.1    130.8    0.51
6,000    288.2    252.3    135.6    0.53

from the above, you want to tell me where this engines "sweet spot" is?

[CAP1]

....on the other hand I can think of a few with a nearly linear torque curve.  

i believe that the power curve will change, due to the efficiency that the engine produces its torque.  as it produces torque very well, it will make a lot of power. as the efficiency of torque production drops off, then so too, will the power.

so it is perfectly understandable to have a linear torque curve, with a non linear power curve.

[CAP1]

A gas molecule is a moving body. Go back and read what I posted on different types of kinetic energies.

i read it. you're pretty much trying to split atoms(pun intended) with the wording.

the combustion produces thermal energy.

[Die Hard]

but the horsepower does not move my car. it is a byproduct of making torque. by those formulas, i am making 673 lb/ft of torque. that is what moves my car. it's what moves your car. it's what moves every car on the road. torque. it's what's being multiplied by your transmission, and your differential. torque.

How much torque do you have at 0 rpm?

Torque X RPM = power. Power propels your car, not torque alone. Two cars identical in every way except one gets max hp at high revs and the other gets max hp at low revs will have identical performance (gearing not considered for this example). The high rev engine will produce less torque than the low revving engine.