Aces High vs Targetware

[Ack-Ack]

I Aces High, we cannot land a plane with as much wing missing as the picture Karaya posted. We can fight it and keep from spinning out of control maybe but the end result is it's going down. However we can keep it flying when the wing tips have been removed. There is a picture of a P38 somewhere on this board flying with even more wingtip missing than the TBM posted above.

Only speaking from experience flying a P-38 missing that much of a wing in the game, as long as you still have your flap for that damaged wing and can deploy it, you can nurse it back to base and land.  Sure, the landing will be rough but it is possible.  There have been a couple of times where I've had both wings shot off and was able to deploy flaps enough to provide some lift and with a lot of rudder and throttle control managed to make it home but it's not a walk in the park by any stretch of the imagination.  But if the flap is also gone on the damaged wing, you're pretty much toast.

You can also use a technique called "Knife Edge Flight".  To do this, roll the airplane 90 degrees, with the wingtips perpendicular to the ground. While rolling into this position, apply opposite rudder to keep the nose high and the plane flying level. You may need to add power, depending on the type of airplane. You may also find that you need to add more rudder throw to your setup and/or use high rudder rate. Use the elevator for steering to keep the aircraft flying straight. 

I know this isn't possible in a real life plane but it's a common maneuver in RC planes and it does work in game, though for short distances only (if you're low enough, it's enough to let you land pretty hard and you'll probably end crashing on landing but sometimes you can get lucky and tower out safely).  Just an example of something possible in game that isn't possible with a real world aircraft. At least, I've never seen or heard of a real plane pulling it off, only RC planes.


ack-ack

[mtnman]

In AH, when we lose a wingtip, it looks worse from thje cockpit than it does from the outside.  From the cockpit, it looks like 1/2 or more of the wing is missing, when from a better outside view you'll see that only about 1/4-1/3 of the wing is missing.

In RL, I wouldn't want to try it, although from the photos it was obviously possible to RTB if everything worked out.  As long as the stabilizers are ok, and especially if the flaps are functional, I don't find it terribly "abnormal" that with skill, luck, and lack of fear, we're able to get it home in that condition, especially since we're only talking about keeping it airborne for a few minutes...

I didn't make it home, but would have had I not been shot again after this SS...  I could have nursed it home, but I couldn't maneuver.  And no moot, I don't support the plane flying with little stubs from the missing stabilizer.

[5PointOh]

Many times I have limped a half winged 51 home, 1 to 2 notchs of flap and then I manual trim and adjust throttle.  It actually flies well at 350mph.  It the landing that the rough part. Lots of rudder and a little bit of luck!

[moot]

The AH planes still weigh the same when there's a missing major sections, but a couple of aero heads said that'd make no difference in the case of missing wingtips.  Seems strange to me, but I don't know the math.

[Brooke]

You can also use a technique called "Knife Edge Flight". 

it's a common maneuver in RC planes and it does work in game, though for short distances only

I've seen Pitts specials do this at airshows, but as you say, only for a short distance (like length of runway).  They need higher airspeed to pull it off (as the lift from the fuselage is so low, at lower airspeeds it won't work).

[Raptor]

There have been a couple of times where I've had both wings shot off and was able to deploy flaps enough to provide some lift and with a lot of rudder and throttle control managed to make it home but it's not a walk in the park by any stretch of the imagination.  But if the flap is also gone on the damaged wing, you're pretty much toast.

That is what I was referring to. Now that Karaya has posted a better picture, I can see that the P47 is not missing as much wing as I initially thought.

[mtnman]

I've seen Pitts specials do this at airshows, but as you say, only for a short distance (like length of runway).  They need higher airspeed to pull it off (as the lift from the fuselage is so low, at lower airspeeds it won't work).

On those aerobatic planes a lot of care goes into designing them so that the rudder gives a more "pure" yaw effect (without as much, if any, roll and/or pitch effect) which makes the knife-edge-type maneuvers much more controllable and sustainable.  CG and power/weight ratio also play a pretty significant role.

I'd be real surprised if any WW2 planes could fly a true, sustained, knife-edge for more than a few seconds, although I've seen aerobatic R/C planes transition from knife-edge to vertical by increasing rudder deflection.

[Die Hard]

And no moot, I don't support the plane flying with little stubs from the missing stabilizer.

Why not?

[moot]

More accurately, support for combat performance maneuvering with two stubs as vstab.

[Die Hard]

As long as you keep the speed up you only need a fraction of the vert stab surface to create the same stability as at stall speed with an undamaged one. In addition, if the damage causes more drag (it invariably does) that acts as a stabilizing force as well. As long as you limit your "combat performance maneuvering" to the pitch and roll axis it should not matter at all.

[moot]

I wasn't that fast. Not over 200mph for sure, and down near the deck. One or two flat scissors followed by three or four rolling scissors with the last probably below 150 mph.  Two stubs are enough to stabilize that..  I doubt it.

[mtnman]

Why not?

Because I see a difference between being able to "make it back", and "maneuver effectively in combat" with a missing vertical stabilizer.  

If the "stub" is enough to create a weather-vane effect, I could see the possibility with careful use of throttle and a gentle hand on the stick to limp back home, and possibly even get it on the runway.

Active maneuvering, like moot describes?  Nope, I don't see it...  

The vertical stab isn't optional, and it isn't designed to be big enough to do its job as long as a small portion of it is still there.  It's designed to do its job with a minimum of materials, weight.  Once part of it is gone, it's below that "minimum" and shouldn't be able to still perform like it was there.  It isn't like the designer says "well, he's gonna need this much, but we'd better triple the size of it so if he has 2/3 of it shot away he can still finish the fight".

In active maneuvering, at relatively high AoA and slow speeds, I'd expect adverse yaw effect to be more than enough to wreck your day.  Throw some torque in, and well, no, I don't see it...

The damage in that film was neat, and in some of those instances I could see "possibly getting home, but not fighting.  It's not like they didn't ignore some effects either.  That F4U on fire for example, has fabric elevators and rudder, but they withstand the flames just fine...  Obviously, AH still doesn't model the full burning effects either.  But at the end of the day it's just another "artists interpretation", and I personally don't see the end result being any better than what we have in AH.  Graphically, maybe more impressive.  But then, that may be what I'm seeing too.  A "more impressive looking" amount of damage, who's effects aren't modeled in the FM as intensly as they're modeled in the graphics.

[mtnman]

As long as you keep the speed up you only need a fraction of the vert stab surface to create the same stability as at stall speed with an undamaged one. In addition, if the damage causes more drag (it invariably does) that acts as a stabilizing force as well. As long as you limit your "combat performance maneuvering" to the pitch and roll axis it should not matter at all.

But see, you can't do that.  If you input only aileron, you're also infuencing the yaw axis, and the pitch axis will need to be adjusted for the effect of the yaw and roll axis being altered.

We control the axi independently, but they don't act independently.

[moot]

I checked and the two-stubs graphic is definitely representing a missing part, not just partial damage.
http://allaircraftarcade.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3198

[Die Hard]

Obviously not in the flight model, or we wouldn't have this conversation.