Spit 16 observations (much ado about nothing)

[Oldman731]

Nope, knowing these principles is all important if you want to compare plane performance. And when it comes to things like the example I gave (the difference between rate and radius and the implications thereof), they just are not the sort of thing  people just grasp intuitively that I have seen.

The principles themselves are something you sense as you gain experience - as are many of the tactics, for that matter.  There are plenty of people in AH who fly very effectively yet have never read Shaw.  I read Shaw years ago and have absolutely no recollection of his discussion of nose-to-nose and nose-to-tail turns (and didn't he use different terms for those?).  I'm nevertheless confident that I can fairly well assess differences in aircraft performance.

Reading up on tactics and physics is obviously a desirable thing to do; but I think it's unwise and unfair to tell someone he has no business opining on different aircraft if he can't first pass the written test.

- oldman

[Shuffler]

The principles themselves are something you sense as you gain experience - as are many of the tactics, for that matter.  There are plenty of people in AH who fly very effectively yet have never read Shaw.  I read Shaw years ago and have absolutely no recollection of his discussion of nose-to-nose and nose-to-tail turns (and didn't he use different terms for those?).  I'm nevertheless confident that I can fairly well assess differences in aircraft performance.

Reading up on tactics and physics is obviously a desirable thing to do; but I think it's unwise and unfair to tell someone he has no business opining on different aircraft if he can't first pass the written test.

- oldman

Exactly...... while he's trying to recall that tactic and the dang name of it I'll be reacting to his move and instinctively countering. All my moves are under the same heading BWB (Baffle With Bs) 

To learn the moves to make others miss and to gain the upper hand is great but until they become instinctive you'll not prosper much from your knowledge. The only way to become instinctive is stick time (practice)

[jimson]

I never meant it as an authoritative aircraft performance comparison.

Just a newer players take on the "Perk the super, uber, you're cheating if you fly it, Spit 16 controversy"

While I am familiar with the implications of nose to nose and nose to tail geometry, BnZ has me on turn rate and turn radius. It's difficult to understand them as separate concepts. Seems to me, the faster you can pull your nose around, the tighter your radius necessarily becomes.

Funny how I can get 30 replies on this, but when I post in the wishlist something I'm much more passionate about, increased opportunities for historical scenario game play, I have to beg to get about 5 replies.

Cheers,
Jimson

[Shuffler]

the faster you can pull your nose around


Your terminology is confusing you. Just because you turn a tighter radius does not necessarily mean you'll turn a quicker turn.

You also have another thought creeping in as sustainability. If you are turning really tight... how long can you sustain that before losing too much E?

[jimson]

the faster you can pull your nose around


Your terminology is confusing you. Just because you turn a tighter radius does not necessarily mean you'll turn a quicker turn.

You also have another thought creeping in as sustainability. If you are turning really tight... how long can you sustain that before losing too much E?

Ok, I see. A wider radius of turn, maintaining corner velocity, can be completed quicker than a tighter radius of turn in some instances.

[Shuffler]

 

... and if your target is turning a little tighter than you... your in lag pursuit.

[Anaxogoras]

Funny how I can get 30 replies on this, but when I post in the wishlist something I'm much more passionate about, increased opportunities for historical scenario game play, I have to beg to get about 5 replies.

Yup.  It tells you what most of our community is passionate about.

Btw, radius vs rate:  You can cut a smaller radius than someone with a faster turn rate if you're going slow enough.  For example:

Suppose that my velocity is 100ft/second, and I'm turning at 36 degrees/second.  I will complete a full circle in 10 seconds, and my radius will be 1000ft/2pi = ~159ft.

Now, your velocity is 50ft/second, and you're turning at 30 degrees/second.  You will complete a full circle in 12 seconds, and your radius will be 600ft/2pi = ~ 95ft.

In AH, it frequently happens that the Spitfire will out turn another aircraft type, but cut a larger turn radius, i.e. turning a full circle more quickly, but a larger circle.

[boomerlu]

Ok, I see. A wider radius of turn, maintaining corner velocity, can be completed quicker than a tighter radius of turn in some instances.

Correct. However, from Badboy's Bootstrap, it seems most planes turn tighter at corner velocity than they do sustained.

An easier way to see radius versus rate this is to consider the most extreme case possible - a stationary airplane (on the ground for example). It cannot turn AT ALL (zero rate), but its turn radius is necessarily zero. An ack turret has a positive turn rate but it also has zero radius.

The "practical" cases are there - but it's more subtle. Many other effects come in such as engine power, drag, etc - harder to clearly describe "why" it happens than the stationary plane case.

[boomerlu]

Yup.  It tells you what most of our community is passionate about.

Apparently we like arguing and looking like we know everything. FWIW, I have posted in your other thread, jimson, and I appreciate your points there.

[jimson]

Apparently we like arguing and looking like we know everything. FWIW, I have posted in your other thread, jimson, and I appreciate your points there.

Yes Boomer, thanks for the kind words.

[Saurdaukar]

I never meant it as an authoritative aircraft performance comparison.

Just a newer players take on the "Perk the super, uber, you're cheating if you fly it, Spit 16 controversy"

Welcome to AH.

Spitfires of all marks have been targeted as "easy-mode" planes since someone had the awesome/life-sucking idea that it might be neat to be a cartoon airplane pilot, fly around in cartoon airplanes and shoot at other cartoon airplanes being flown by other cartoon airplane pilots.

Almost every Spitfire has the same glarring weakness - a crappy rate of roll.  This can be exploited.

The exception to this rule is the 16.  That exception is the reason the 16 is loathed by many players.

Plainly speaking, if an aircraft has no real weakness to exploit, how do you fight it?  You can only hope the driver is on a two-week trial.  It climbs like a K4, rolls like a 190 and turns like... well... a Spit. 

Spit 8 - I have no problem with it.  Basically a 16 without the clipped wings and, thus, the rate of roll weakness.  Great training tool for a new player in the LWMA - more than capable - but it's shortcoming can be exploited.

But the 16... think of any other airplane in the set - any one at all - and ask yourself how you might go about winning a co-alt, co-E, nose-on-nose engagement with a Spit 16...

...Beuller?

[Anaxogoras]

Oh, I can think of a bunch!

Tempest: extend away, turn around, and go for the HO.

Typhoon: extend away, turn around, and go for the HO.

La-7: extend away, turn around, and go for the HO.

190D-9: extend away, turn around, and go for the HO.
 

-----------------

Actually, the F4U-4 has a legitimate chance against the XVI with equal pilots, but that's the only one I can think of.

[Shuffler]

<snicker>

[jimson]

Welcome to AH.

Spitfires of all marks have been targeted as "easy-mode" planes since someone had the awesome/life-sucking idea that it might be neat to be a cartoon airplane pilot, fly around in cartoon airplanes and shoot at other cartoon airplanes being flown by other cartoon airplane pilots.

Almost every Spitfire has the same glarring weakness - a crappy rate of roll.  This can be exploited.

The exception to this rule is the 16.  That exception is the reason the 16 is loathed by many players.

Plainly speaking, if an aircraft has no real weakness to exploit, how do you fight it?  You can only hope the driver is on a two-week trial.  It climbs like a K4, rolls like a 190 and turns like... well... a Spit. 

Spit 8 - I have no problem with it.  Basically a 16 without the clipped wings and, thus, the rate of roll weakness.  Great training tool for a new player in the LWMA - more than capable - but it's shortcoming can be exploited.

But the 16... think of any other airplane in the set - any one at all - and ask yourself how you might go about winning a co-alt, co-E, nose-on-nose engagement with a Spit 16...

...Beuller?

True, enough.

At least there is ENY and you can't always fly the 16.

Yes, I have been noticing the difference in the past couple of days, because after this education of a thread, or because I am gaining some experience, I don't know.

Perhaps a reverse perk system, so new guys would stand a fighting chance?

[boomerlu]

True, enough.

At least there is ENY and you can't always fly the 16.

Yes, I have been noticing the difference in the past couple of days, because after this education of a thread, or because I am gaining some experience, I don't know.

Perhaps a reverse perk system, so new guys would stand a fighting chance?

Yeah the Spit16 holds all the advantages given a Co-E duel and same pilot skill.

So why would you ever want to engage a Spit16 in a Co-E 1v1 duel with a pilot the same skill level as you? I'd guess most of our virtual deaths are due to stupidity, not bad flying. Taking on a Spixteen Co-E 1v1 with a worse plane falls under the category of "stupidity" unless you're positive the pilot is much worse than you. Remember our game is not a series of Co-E 1v1s. Come in with friends, come in with alt, come in with more speed. There is a reason the Spixteen is not the only plane you see in the arenas.

As far as how to give newbies a fighting chance? I don't know - I've never been a "true" newbie. I've sucked, and am still not great, but I've been playing flight sims (and "space sims") since I was 6 years old, so concepts like turn radius and drawing lead are second nature.

You cannot make a clueless newbie into an ace simply by throwing them into a superior plane. The only thing that does is give them a better chance against other newbies. But hey, they are all flying Spixteens anyways!

When I see a Spixteen land 2 kills, I think "maybe they are a newb got lucky with a good plane, maybe they flew smart." For 3 kills "they probably flew smart." More than that, I don't put an asterisk by their name at all. Why?

Because I know if they aren't flying smart, there are guys like me out there in 190s (or whatever suitably "inferior plane") with an E advantage ready to blow the Spixteen out of the sky.