Tiger vs M4, long range

[moot]

There's been arguments over the relative strengths of the Firefly's and Tiger's armor and guns.  Back in the Dawn of Battle event, what I saw hinted at the M4's front armor, incl turret armor, being able to shrug off Tiger rounds easily, while its guns was easily able to damage the Tiger's turret at all ranges up to way out around 5K+ (or quite a bit less if the Tigers were high enough).  IIRC some people still weren't convinced..  Here's a film showing the same thing that happened in the event, but with the M4 sitting 700ft higher and 4.7K away from the Tiger.  None of the Tiger's rounds penetrated. The film doesn't seem to show it, but the Tiger towered out after the last hit disabled its turret.

The turret hit:

[Rich46yo]

Couldnt ask for a better spot to hit a Tiger. The front/top/turret is the largest section of 25mm armor on the tank. I normally aim for either turret center, or rear top center, and walk the rounds in to finish my shot string turret/top/front. Ive taken Tigers out coming straight down vertical and put a couple 37mm volleys right into that section of the turret top. 37mm AP at 200 yrds will blow right thru it. Im not surprised the excellent AP rounds of the M4 did too. Theres a lot to be said of sitting higher up then the Tiger.

[Anaxogoras]

Even with both tanks at the same altitude, I've noticed the same thing.  The Firefly has a fantastic cannon and its sloped armor is tough to penetrate even at 2.5-3k yards.

[Ack-Ack]

There's been arguments over the relative strengths of the Firefly's and Tiger's armor and guns.  Back in the Dawn of Battle event, what I saw hinted at the M4's front armor, incl turret armor, being able to shrug off Tiger rounds easily, while its guns was easily able to damage the Tiger's turret at all ranges up to way out around 5K+ (or quite a bit less if the Tigers were high enough).  IIRC some people still weren't convinced..  Here's a film showing the same thing that happened in the event, but with the M4 sitting 700ft higher and 4.7K away from the Tiger.  None of the Tiger's rounds penetrated. The film doesn't seem to show it, but the Tiger towered out after the last hit disabled its turret.

What is the penetrating power of the 17 pounder at 4,700yards? 

I know it was capable of penetrating 140 mm of armor at 500 meters (546.806 yds) and 131 mm of armor at 1000 meters (1093.613 yds) at 30 degrees with the APCBC round.  On paper, it was able to penetrate 209 mm of armor at 500 meters and 192 mm of armor at 1000 meters at 30 degrees with the APDS round.

I would think at 4297.68 Meters (4700 yds) the penetrating power of either the APCBC or APDS round would be significantly less and probably wouldn't be able to penetrate even at a 30 degree angle.  I mean, the 17 pounder was a great main tank gun but it wasn't that über.

Even with both tanks at the same altitude, I've noticed the same thing.  The Firefly has a fantastic cannon and its sloped armor is tough to penetrate even at 2.5-3k yards.

It shouldn't as the Firefly didn't have any mobility or armor advantages over the standard Sherman.

ack-ack

[moot]

I dunno AKAK, I know next to nothing about armor.  I'd run it thru matlab (don't remember how to do it with excel), but the curve from tarrif.net's data for the 17 pounder doesn't show any clue of the shape of the kind of drop you'd get past the round's effectiveness at extreme ranges.

In practice though, the M4 has no trouble penetrating the Tiger up to around 4.5K.  My memory from the Tunisia event is going, but I do recall from that and from in the MAs, that the M4 penetrates the Tiger more easily than vice versa once you get past a certain range.. Around 3 or 3.5K.  This is as far as front armor goes.  From almost any other other angle the M4 is either almost tied or outclassed by the Tiger.  That's the trend I've seen.  I have no doubt that the M4's turret is almost impossible to score damage against in an average exchange with equal experienced pilots at long range, whereas the Tiger lasts something like (rough ballpark) 60% as long.

[chris3]

moin

im notic it too that the tiger had a lot of problems to kill an M4 at long range if his front armor is at 12 uhr position.
Maybe all your aspekts are right...But i have read alot of wwII reports of Tiger Comanders and i have never heread about that problems. The m4 was always an easy kill only the kannon of the firefly was a problem.

cu chris3

[Ack-Ack]

The m4 was always an easy kill only the kannon of the firefly was a problem.

cu chris3

Exactly, in real life the Firefly's armor was not better than that of the standard M4 Sherman.  The Tiger's main gun was easily able to slice through the standard Sherman and should be no different with the Firefly in game.


ack-ack

[JunkyII]

Tiger is useless with all the M4s around should drop its perk value to about twice the M4 if not less

[Anaxogoras]

Tiger is useless with all the M4s around should drop its perk value to about twice the M4 if not less

Better to make the M4 more expensive, maybe about 12 perks.

But this is another rerun conversation.  Same points have been made over and over, nearly everyone agrees, same conversation will happen again in 6 months.

[Rich46yo]

Well heres a great Tiger sight anyways http://www.alanhamby.com/tiger.html

[BigPlay]

Even with both tanks at the same altitude, I've noticed the same thing.  The Firefly has a fantastic cannon and its sloped armor is tough to penetrate even at 2.5-3k yards.

armor as thin as the Sherman errrrr firefly sloped or not is and in real life was easily  penetrated by the 75mm L/48 gun on a panzer. No way even at range.

[Ack-Ack]

Tiger is useless with all the M4s around should drop its perk value to about twice the M4 if not less

Better to make the M4 more expensive, maybe about 12 perks.

But this is another rerun conversation.  Same points have been made over and over, nearly everyone agrees, same conversation will happen again in 6 months.

This is an issue that wouldn't be solved by perking the Firefly, its like sticking a finger to plug a leaking dam.  Its a modeling issue that needs to be fixed with a little bit of coding.


ack-ack

[Rich46yo]

I cant seem to interpret how that AP round hit that Tiger in the pictures.

There is a hit sprite down in the front turret/cannon/face plate, suspiciously near the MG window. Then there is the large sprite in the top turret, which at first I thought was an angled entry shot into the tanks 25mm plate.

But the more I look at it the more it looks like the round either went thru some of the tanks thickest armor, or, it went thru the MG window. That gun mantle plate has to be at least 100 to 120 mm of the toughest armor plate put on a WW-ll tank.

Maybe Moot can clarify exactly what is happening in the picture.

[moot]

I didn't code the game so I'm just guessing.. it might've passed thru or ricochet'd off the plate, then penetrated and damaged the turret where the bigger hit sprite is.

The film is linked to, you can download it and see the round's trajectory and hit sprites for yourself in 3D. 

[Die Hard]

My guess is that round/plate overmatching isn't modeled. In real life the 88 mm overmatched the Shermans 51 mm plate and thus reduced the effect of slope. The Tiger's 100-120 mm armor also overmatched the 75 mm round reducing its effectiveness. It's difficult to accurately gauge these effects.