190 vs P51 roll rate?

[StSanta]

Take this not as a whine, but a question:

in another thread, HiTech mentioned something about sustained turn rate and linearity. I interpreted it as meaning that roll rate would get a little worse as you got close to max speed.

In the 190, this is certainly true; around 300, it rolls like a dream. At high speeds, roll rate is less.

So the other day me and Maik compared notes. Both had been chased by a high P-51, and we'd both taken our planes *fast* - between 450-500. What was curious was that the P-51 could quite easily match our roll rate - which means it has either equal or better roll rate.

If this linearity thing is what I think it is, the relationship should stay (roughly) the same, especially as you move close to top speed.

Anyone care to explain why it is not?

------------------
StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}

[Nath-BDP]

fyi, the P51s roll rate increases with speed but at around 200-375 the 190 roll rate is superior by far.

[RAM]

The P51 has very good high speed control, at speeds over 450 it **may** roll better than the 190, I havent tested it on purpose but experience tell me that it is that way.

At lower speeds, under 400IAS, the 190 rolls better by far.

I think that the 190 worse rollrate is accurate, because the ailerons are not assisted by anything and so at higher speed the pilot has to overcome more aerodinamic forces.

In the P51, I dont know.

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 11-26-2000).]

[juzz]

Just don't try rolling with the P-38L at high speed.   It has the only hydraulically boosted ailerons on a WW2 fighter.

The P-51D has no assistance, just different design to Fw 190 I suppose.

F4U had tabs to reduce aerodynamic forces.

Spitfire ailerons bend the wings at high speed, they were limited to 470mph IAS because of this.  

[Glunz]

 

Originally posted by juzz:
Spitfire ailerons bend the wings at high speed, they were limited to 470mph IAS because of this.  

Is this modeled in AH ?

[funked]

I'll check it Glunz.

BTW I'm Glunz.  
(j/k it was an old WB handle)

What's your real handle?  I.e. who were you in AH before Glunz?

[Glunz]

I know that, Funked  

It is still in JG5 roster page.


But here I took the handle first.  
What my former handle(s) was(were), find out yourself.

[funked]

 

[wells]

Provided full aileron deflection can be maintained, roll rate will be linear with speed.  Because the 190's wingspan is less, it rolls faster.  The P-51's ailerons only deflect 10 degrees so as not to upset the laminar flow too much, so they don't require as much force to deflect fully.  As a result, full deflection can be maintained to a higher speed than the 190.

[214thCavalier]

Btw none of this is "my feelings" or "thoughts" or "I think" its researched facts so on we go  

Last time i checked P51's best roll rate was 94 degrees per second at 310 mph IAS.
Above approx 375 IAS the P51 roll rate exceeds the 190's, roll rates are not linear with speed at all every aircraft reaches a max roll rate speed goes through it, then the roll rate drops off again but some drop off faster and more than others.

For comparison we have,

P38H 77 degs/sec at 290 IAS.
P38L 110 degs/sec at 410 IAS.
P47 C&D 84 degs/sec at 250 IAS.
Spit IX 105 degs/sec at 200 IAS.
Typhoon 55 degs/sec at 250 IAS.

This site (link below) although from EAW have been altering the FM's and have done some serious work in finding hard performance data for the aircraft, and by that i mean nothing is accepted unless its supported by multiple pieces of corroborating hard evidence.
Some of them can even quote you the weights of individual oil tanks and Wep systems etc used on different models of the various aircraft    

Link here to the main page,  http://www.geocities.com/weurger/main.htm


Follow the link to Performance charts,  http://www.geocities.com/weurger/main/graphs.html

Best bit is the graphs are overlaid for easy comparison and after all a P51 or a 190 is a P51 or 190 in any sim if the data is correct, err i hope anyway    

Some of the stuff represented in these graphs is way beyond me and i do not even pretend to understand it all.

And if anybody thinks they find an error please dont shout and holler cos he may not update the charts as often as they get new info, but as far as i am aware its all up to date.

[This message has been edited by 214thCavalier (edited 11-28-2000).]

[StSanta]

Thanks cav, much appreciated.  

------------------
StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}