Author Topic: Pilot wound in GV's?  (Read 2175 times)

Offline CountD90

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Re: Pilot wound in GV's?
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2009, 05:32:03 PM »
DAMN U ACK ACK!!!! beat me too it lmao :O
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Offline Rino

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Re: Pilot wound in GV's?
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2009, 05:33:57 PM »
     Something tells me Batch could care less about historical accuracy.  He just
wants a forum to wah wah about his wirblewind.  I do especially like his comment
that fifties would not be fired at antiaicraft positions.  My sister in law's Dad was
drafted by the Luftwaffe in 1943.  In 1944 he was assigned to a 20mm gun battery
just west of Cherbourg.  On June 6th his section was strafed by a P-38 Lightning
while guarding an empty field.  He still carries 27 pieces of shrapnel from that attack.

     Hans said that the other gun in the section drew fire from the 38 by firing at it
first.  Interestingly enough, he was assigned to a flakvierling 38 4 barreled 20mm....
look at all familiar?



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Offline batch

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Re: Pilot wound in GV's?
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2009, 05:38:05 PM »
interesting that 2 of you would within minutes post what hans rudel did and neither of you had anywhere near the others number............ I would say both of you are historically inaccurate and need to be remodeled

either of which...... both being wrong....... take that number times (if using even a conservative number 20% of estimated total players) 1000 players........ can you name me 1000 historically accurate people who eggtarded?............ and then try to name me 1 with accuracy?
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Pilot wound in GV's?
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2009, 05:40:14 PM »
Ill answer these for you since your tone seems to infer you cannot......

Are you aware that this is a game and accuracy vs playability is a line that is often way crossed to the playability side? in many cases it is such (leaves that historically accurate argument out the window)

Are you aware how many times a 50 plane horde was sent to an airbase NOE and had all hangers down leaving them with only a handful of WW to defend [both a base and a town]? NEVER (leaves that historically accurate argument out the window)

I put those brackets in the last one for you to clearly see another example.......... where in "historical accuracy" was a town needed to be destoyed and ten troops dropped to capture territory?

so you see this is not ............as HITECH himself has said many times and will gladly say again IM sure........ a reproduction of history....... nor is it intended to be

this is a game that has trademarks of WWII equipment.......... and while I would agree that accuracy is nice in some aspects......... its not the end all way to be

lest we forget this is a game and none of our actions and behaviours in the game historically reflect

I will also in going give you one more for the historically accurate crowd......... next time you die......... logoff and dont come back..... after all you want EVERYTHING historically accurate

I really do not care whether you like my "tone" or not. Evidently you can't answer any of the questions correctly at all, and that is not surprising.

Capture conditions are a simple mechanism which are there to encourage a fight. They are not at all meant to be even remotely historically accurate.

There were plenty of instances where overwhelming air power was sent in order to maximize the chances of a successful operation. In fact, any time it was possible, and overwhelming force was sent to the battle.

Ever heard of a German operation called Bodenplatte? It was just such an operation, intended to destroy the Allied ability to fight in the air. There was most certainly a horde sent with the intention to deny the Allies the use of their air assets. And yes, it compares directly to destroying the hangars in AH. So, you are indeed quite wrong, such operations did indeed occur in real life. In real life, it was a failure. But had things been only slightly different, it could have been a success.

I'll let you in on a little secret. HTC does not significantly alter plane or vehicle performance in the name of game play. Every vehicle, and every airplane, has handicaps, just like they had in real life. You evidently have not read everything HTC or Dale himself has written. The GAME is a GAME, not a simulation of war. However, the tools of war are as close a simulation as is possible. The concessions they make in modeling are driven by the need for the player to be able to operate the tools of war without excess difficulty or the need for serious training. Those concessions are NOT made in order to make certain tools more competitive.

The truth here is that you just want your advantage back because you want a crutch. You already have an exaggerated rate of fire, but you need a faster traverse rate as well? Okay, fine. How about we give the planes an exaggerated rate of fire since they do not have heavy armor. We'll just hang a 20mm Vulcan cannon in the nose of the P-38 since it is such a large somewhat soft target and easily hit from the ground. That should even things up. After all, you need a couple of historically inaccurate crutches, so why not give them to others?
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline VonMessa

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Re: Pilot wound in GV's?
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2009, 05:43:46 PM »
    Something tells me Batch could care less about historical accuracy.  He just
wants a forum to wah wah about his wirblewind.  I do especially like his comment
that fifties would not be fired at antiaicraft positions.  My sister in law's Dad was
drafted by the Luftwaffe in 1943.  In 1944 he was assigned to a 20mm gun battery
just west of Cherbourg.  On June 6th his section was strafed by a P-38 Lightning
while guarding an empty field.  He still carries 27 pieces of shrapnel from that attack.

     Hans said that the other gun in the section drew fire from the 38 by firing at it
first.  Interestingly enough, he was assigned to a flakvierling 38 4 barreled 20mm....
look at all familiar?

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

I bet it does to Vilkas   :salute
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Offline batch

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Re: Pilot wound in GV's?
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2009, 05:46:38 PM »
I really do not care whether you like my "tone" or not. Evidently you can't answer any of the questions correctly at all, and that is not surprising.

Capture conditions are a simple mechanism which are there to encourage a fight. They are not at all meant to be even remotely historically accurate.

There were plenty of instances where overwhelming air power was sent in order to maximize the chances of a successful operation. In fact, any time it was possible, and overwhelming force was sent to the battle.

Ever heard of a German operation called Bodenplatte? It was just such an operation, intended to destroy the Allied ability to fight in the air. There was most certainly a horde sent with the intention to deny the Allies the use of their air assets. And yes, it compares directly to destroying the hangars in AH. So, you are indeed quite wrong, such operations did indeed occur in real life. In real life, it was a failure. But had things been only slightly different, it could have been a success.

I'll let you in on a little secret. HTC does not significantly alter plane or vehicle performance in the name of game play. Every vehicle, and every airplane, has handicaps, just like they had in real life. You evidently have not read everything HTC or Dale himself has written. The GAME is a GAME, not a simulation of war. However, the tools of war are as close a simulation as is possible. The concessions they make in modeling are driven by the need for the player to be able to operate the tools of war without excess difficulty or the need for serious training. Those concessions are NOT made in order to make certain tools more competitive.

The truth here is that you just want your advantage back because you want a crutch. You already have an exaggerated rate of fire, but you need a faster traverse rate as well? Okay, fine. How about we give the planes an exaggerated rate of fire since they do not have heavy armor. We'll just hang a 20mm Vulcan cannon in the nose of the P-38 since it is such a large somewhat soft target and easily hit from the ground. That should even things up. After all, you need a couple of historically inaccurate crutches, so why not give them to others?

you lost your argument in your long winded dribble in the first example you present in regards to hording....... as even you admit it was a failure and never occurred......... no need to read after that
"theres nothin like wakin up with a Dickens Cider" - Dickens Fruit Stand

Offline CountD90

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Re: Pilot wound in GV's?
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2009, 05:46:43 PM »
interesting that 2 of you would within minutes post what hans rudel did and neither of you had anywhere near the others number............ I would say both of you are historically inaccurate and need to be remodeled

either of which...... both being wrong....... take that number times (if using even a conservative number 20% of estimated total players) 1000 players........ can you name me 1000 historically accurate people who eggtarded?............ and then try to name me 1 with accuracy?


ummm..... heres a list off wiki with the names, ranks, estimate of number of tank kills (doesn't include possible truck, train, and ship kills)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_World_War_II_ground_attack_aces


The average number of missions flown is in the thousands and these are only the ones considered aces, not even the grunts of the ground attack.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 05:49:01 PM by CountD90 »
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Pilot wound in GV's?
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2009, 05:47:04 PM »
interesting that 2 of you would within minutes post what hans rudel did and neither of you had anywhere near the others number............ I would say both of you are historically inaccurate and need to be remodeled

either of which...... both being wrong....... take that number times (if using even a conservative number 20% of estimated total players) 1000 players........ can you name me 1000 historically accurate people who eggtarded?............ and then try to name me 1 with accuracy?

One of them lists about 1500 specific targets destroyed, including some 1300 vehicles. The other says "near 2000" in general. Not really all that far apart, given one was just posting "off the cuff". The listing of specific targets destroyed by Rudel is quite accurate, unlike any of your statements. The only thing needing to be remodeled due to lack of accuracy here is you. That is quite obvious.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Pilot wound in GV's?
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2009, 05:52:01 PM »
you lost your argument in your long winded dribble in the first example you present in regards to hording....... as even you admit it was a failure and never occurred......... no need to read after that

Bodenplatte most certainly did occur, it is a matter of historical recorded fact, and quite famous at that. I never said it did not occur, quite the contrary, I said it did occur. I did say that it failed, because circumstances did not fall in favor of the Germans. Had one or more circumstances of chance gone the other way, it would have been a success. In fact, had they been about 10 minutes early, at least one Allied squadron would have been caught on the runway sitting still.

The only person losing the argument here is you, as every argument you have brought up has been quickly and easily shot down in flames, due to their lack of basis in fact and reality. They don't even hold up under the premise of enhance game play.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline batch

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Re: Pilot wound in GV's?
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2009, 05:54:24 PM »
Bodenplatte most certainly did occur, it is a matter of historical recorded fact, and quite famous at that. I never said it did not occur, quite the contrary, I said it did occur. I did say that it failed, because circumstances did not fall in favor of the Germans. Had one or more circumstances of chance gone the other way, it would have been a success. In fact, had they been about 10 minutes early, at least one Allied squadron would have been caught on the runway sitting still.

The only person losing the argument here is you, as every argument you have brought up has been quickly and easily shot down in flames, due to their lack of basis in fact and reality. They don't even hold up under the premise of enhance game play.

I want to be perfectly clear here for  you to understand...... since youre having problems with comprehension........ and want to post this example as a case where a horde attacked and left a base with only a few WW to defend........ did it happen that way or not......... did they succeed in completely shutting down air operations leaving only a few ground vehicles to defend against a horde or not?

thats a very clear question on whether it occurred or not....... easy enough even for you
"theres nothin like wakin up with a Dickens Cider" - Dickens Fruit Stand

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Pilot wound in GV's?
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2009, 05:55:36 PM »
Since you do not believe in Bodenplatte (ground plate), here's a link to the story, as told by both sides.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_200502/ai_n9477885/

"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline LLogann

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Re: Pilot wound in GV's?
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2009, 05:58:35 PM »
Universities in the USA keep a list of "respected" websites that carry factual data.  BNET.com...... is not one of them.  No offense.   You might as well post a link to wiki.  Give us the name of a published book.............  :huh



Since you do not believe in Bodenplatte (ground plate), here's a link to the story, as told by both sides.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_200502/ai_n9477885/



And no offense but the both of you deserve a week ban for hijacking this thread.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Pilot wound in GV's?
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2009, 05:59:16 PM »
I want to be perfectly clear here for  you to understand...... since youre having problems with comprehension........ and want to post this example as a case where a horde attacked and left a base with only a few WW to defend........ did it happen that way or not......... did they succeed in completely shutting down air operations leaving only a few ground vehicles to defend against a horde or not?

thats a very clear question on whether it occurred or not....... easy enough even for you

Here's a clear message for you. The Germans sent 800 planes out in a single mission against Allied air fields in January 1945, with the intent of shutting down Allied air fields. Some Allied air fields were caught with their planes on the ground and were wrecked and shut down.

So the answer to your question is yes airfields have been completely shut down by large numbers of enemy planes, leaving them completely unable to field their air assets.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Pilot wound in GV's?
« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2009, 06:00:34 PM »
interesting that 2 of you would within minutes post what hans rudel did and neither of you had anywhere near the others number............ I would say both of you are historically inaccurate and need to be remodeled

either of which...... both being wrong....... take that number times (if using even a conservative number 20% of estimated total players) 1000 players........ can you name me 1000 historically accurate people who eggtarded?............ and then try to name me 1 with accuracy?

Actually, we were both correct in our numbers.  I just posted an abridged version showing some of the 2,000 recorded ground targets he claimed to have destroyed.  If you further look at my numbers I posted, the 1,319 was just the number of tanks and other ground vehicles he is recorded as destroying to illustrate the point that bombing tanks and other ground vehicles was very common.  The numbers I didn't include were the 500+ recorded destruction of other ground targets such as machine gun emplacements, bunkers, block houses, bridges, etc. that have been attributed to him.

Does it really matter who in the game is accurate or not when attacking ground vehicles?  Accuracy doesn't matter at all since it doesn't prove your point at all that it wasn't common in real life.  However, the real life facts (backed up by historical records) clearly show that ground attack missions against tanks and other ground vehicles was almost an every day occurance.  Just look at any of the combat records of attack units on both the German and Soviet side.  Hell, our example of using Hans Rudel proves your argument is incorrect.


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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Pilot wound in GV's?
« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2009, 06:01:26 PM »
Universities in the USA keep a list of "respected" websites that carry factual data.  BNET.com...... is not one of them.  No offense.   You might as well post a link to wiki.  Give us the name of a published book.............  :huh



And no offense but the both of you deserve a week ban for hijacking this thread.

Flight Journal Magazine is a well respected historical aircraft magazine. They published that story originally.


When you make moderator, let me know. I'll cancel my subscription.

No offense.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe