Tricks for bleeding 'e' at the top of a rolling scissors

[Ardy123]

When pulling a rolling scissors, what tricks do you guys/gals, used to bleed e at the top and cause an overshoot. I've tried slipping the rudder but that doesn't appear to bleed enough.

[Soulyss]

Cutting throttle and cross controlling (skidding) pretty much as the same effect as dropping an anchor out the window.  If that's not slowing you down enough then there's probably something else ACM/geometry wise that you should look at.

[boomerlu]

When pulling a rolling scissors, what tricks do you guys/gals, used to bleed e at the top and cause an overshoot. I've tried slipping the rudder but that doesn't appear to bleed enough.

http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/rollingscissors/rollingscissors.htm

According to this, you don't want to bleed E to force an overshoot - instead you want to hang vertical longer in the scissors. Typically I will simply fly lag pursuit for a few revolutions and then suddenly I "see" the shot (e.g. we've created enough distance that I can finally cut across the barrel and get guns on in time) at which point I'll convert to lead.

[Ardy123]

http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/rollingscissors/rollingscissors.htm

According to this, you don't want to bleed E to force an overshoot - instead you want to hang vertical longer in the scissors. Typically I will simply fly lag pursuit for a few revolutions and then suddenly I "see" the shot (e.g. we've created enough distance that I can finally cut across the barrel and get guns on in time) at which point I'll convert to lead.

Ok let me describe a situation, someone is 'co-e' with you and on your six, so...
1) turn to the left
2) as they turn to left too, to follow you, you roll and turn to the right and now we're in a flat scissors.
3) as you prepare to reverse to left again, instead you go up, and then roll to a) cause an overshoot, b) to initiate a rolling scissors.
4) If I can bleed enough e, they will blow past me then pull up and I have the adv in the rolling scissors cuz now I'm on their six.

[boomerlu]

Ok let me describe a situation, someone is 'co-e' with you and on your six, so...
1) turn to the left
2) as they turn to left too, to follow you, you roll and turn to the right and now we're in a flat scissors.
3) as you prepare to reverse to left again, instead you go up, and then roll to a) cause an overshoot, b) to initiate a rolling scissors.
4) If I can bleed enough e, they will blow past me then pull up and I have the adv in the rolling scissors cuz now I'm on their six.

Ok that makes more sense but consider this:
He who wins the rolling scissors is the one who manages E the best. Now, you make no reference to the skill of your opponent, but if he's good, once he recognizes the rolling scissors he will fly as I've mentioned, being very conservative with his E and flying lag pursuit until he sees the shot. Or he will just climb higher than you and wait for you to stall out as you've now dumped E.

Now understandably you want to force an overshoot first. Well... flaps, rudder, gear, throttle chopping. All work. But once you force that overshoot, E management has to be top priority. But also consider that going up is very dangerous - it leaves you extremely slow with a full planform shot for your opponent.

[Ardy123]

But also consider that going up is very dangerous - it leaves you extremely slow with a full planform shot for your opponent.

In the situation I described what other maneuvers would you recommend?  a split s do gain e and create distance?

[Shuffler]

In the situation I described what other maneuvers would you recommend?  a split s do gain e and create distance?

I am just a middle of the road cartoon 38 pilot but here is my take on it.

You have to watch the other guy and decide what his intentions are and react quickly.

Do not get in a hurry to dump your E. Do it gradually and conserve all you can without moving out front. The trick is to keep all the E you can while keeping the other guy in control. You can dump E fast... but if you miss your shot then he will climb and have the advantage putting you defensive in a low E state.
 On some occassions the con might try to dump fast. If he does you need to already know if your going to try to beat him to stall or go to plan B.

[StokesAk]

Put your gear out...

[TequilaChaser]

Put your gear out...

WRONG ............ use a steeper angle........ as Shuffler mentioned YOU DO NOT WANT TO BLOW ALL YOUR E(NERGY) early on ..... you want to maintain your Speed but reduce your forward motion.......... dropping gear blows too much energy and will leave you without options......

Ardy, you have not told us what plane you are flying or what planes you are maneuvering against......

[boomerlu]

In the situation I described what other maneuvers would you recommend?  a split s do gain e and create distance?

If you are looking to dump E and create overshoot, I'd probably do a flat scissors with just a smidgen of vertical thrown in to make the guns solution harder. Something else to try is a throttle off spiral dive. In all cases, the attacker can go vertical and re-attack if he knows what he's doing. The difference is that in a flat scissors (as opposed to the climb you suggested), you stand less chance of being shot as you initiate the overshoot attempt.

Keep in mind the climb may still work depending on your airspeed. The slower you are, the worse of an idea it is. You have to have enough speed (i.e. maneuvering ability) to deny your opponent the shot when you climb.

[Ardy123]

Ardy, you have not told us what plane you are flying or what planes you are maneuvering against......

I usually fly 109s, hence the desire to force a rolling scissors (take adv of my climb rate).
The case that came to mind was from last night fighting against a ki-61 & a Nik.

[Agent360]

Ok let me describe a situation, someone is 'co-e' with you and on your six, so...
1) turn to the left
2) as they turn to left too, to follow you, you roll and turn to the right and now we're in a flat scissors.
3) as you prepare to reverse to left again, instead you go up, and then roll to a) cause an overshoot, b) to initiate a rolling scissors.
4) If I can bleed enough e, they will blow past me then pull up and I have the adv in the rolling scissors cuz now I'm on their six.

Ardy,

What you are describing is not rolling scissors.

You are describing a situation where you have been caught with the bandit d600 to d800 out from your six and looking to close the distance for guns when you turn.

The overshoot you describe is not done by forcing a verticle overshoot.

In order to pull this off you must use angles.

After you have initiated a flat scissor and got him to begin break turning you should now be looking for a way to get your wing pointed directly at him. This creates a 90 deg angle off tail from you (like a T-bone accident). To do this you often have to get slower, for the moment, than the bandit.

First rule is to always force him to turn with nose up. To do this we turn hard into the bandit..bandit closes for guns...immediatly roll FLAT (this points the wing at him) Because he turned into you for a shot he is actually giving you some angles. Now you have your wing at him and immediatly pull up to verticle. THis pull up causes a temporary overshoot past your low six. You can now roll over either in loose barrel or tight stall at top.

Once you have created this low six overshoot you goal now should be to get all the energy you can.

After you roll over he may very will be pointing his nose up for a shot. If so roll back into him to avoid the guns.

THe bandit will most likely have pulled back up after the low six overshoot.

You are nose down now. Convert this to all the energy you can get by flying past him, look back, what ever way he turns you tun the same way forcing the bandit to continue a hard verticle turn to get back on your six. As he does this he is #1 loosing closure and #2 not gaining his E back as fast as you are.

Keep a wide energy gaining flat turn. As soon as he drops his nose to close in a low yoyo you then break hard into and fly UNDER his nose...continue strait for seperation and go strait verticle eeking out every bit of energy you have in the verticle.

If you have timed this right you will most likely be in control on top.

The object is not to actually force a pure slow speed overshoot but to place your plane at 90 deg angles to him when he drops his nose again for a shot. You can easily fly out of guns very fast giving him a very difficult shot.

As the bandit takes these shots he is pulling hard to get the lead while you are just zooming past his guns at 90 degrees. A few of these and you should have equaled the situation if not gained the top postioin out right.

[boomerlu]

If you have timed this right you will most likely be in control on top.

I never quite knew what it was about having your bandit stall out underneath you that was so powerful until I watched a few films of duels I had.

If he stalls out directly underneath you, you are totally in control because no matter which direction he tries to recover, you can easily follow him by simpling rolling to place your lift vector on his flight path.

Even with some horizontal separation and bad angles, a properly used vertical reversal can be extremely effective. Props to you Agent on all that info in the "fake rope" thread.

By the way, by vertical reversal, I (and Agent as well I think) do not mean an overshoot. The bandit never flies past you to the front. It looks somewhat like this:

Before the stall
^ - that's you
^ - that's him

After the stall
v - that's still you
v - that's still him

[Anaxogoras]

you want to maintain your Speed but reduce your forward motion..........

So far as I have read and learned, every scissors fight is about reducing forward motion.

[JunkyII]

Ardy,
Something I took from a scissors post was working to get 2 planes behind your opponent. I almost try flat turning at the top to attampt to go the opposite direction which almost always gets me going sideways. I suggest a steeper climb in a 109 though Im almost always in my KI