Jan 24 1944 - P-51B enters service? - Request for Apache!!!

[Guppy35]

Hmm, 600 Plus Mustang Is
500 A36s
310 P51A
150 Mustang IA of which 93 went RAF and the rest USAAF.

Thinking the first 3 would be a higher priority then the 4 cannon bird

RAF Mustang I

[Karnak]

The ad I posted in the very first post in this topic was the original ad for the P-51 from North American Aviation (1941). I think NAA would know better in 1941 what they called their own plane more so than the re-hashed arguments of wiki-users or History channel viewers of today. If you could find original factory prints of the first NA-73X plans the title block would say 'Project: Apache.'

Just because we disagree with you does not mean that our sources are wikipedia or the trash they show on the History Channel.

[Chalenge]

Just because we disagree with you does not mean that our sources are wikipedia or the trash they show on the History Channel.

That doesnt change the fact that your information is wrong. NAA clearly called their own plane 'Apache' before it was ever called 'Mustang.' When the USAAF put the first P-51 into service it was called Apache. So you can say the first offical service name of the British version was Mustang but only for the British and only after delivery.

Many years ago I read an interview of Atwood and Kindelberger where they stated they chose Apache because it would give their fighter a ferocious yet noble image and they were somewhat surprised that the British chose the name of (what they considered to be) a problem wild animal with terrible traits.

Guppy: There were precisely 300 Mustang 1s built. They came looking for 300 P-40s and they took home a better fighter. I dont think you can argue against 150 as being insufficient given some of the other planes and vehicles in the game already.

[Baumer]

Here's a good site if you're interested in reading about the A-36 in combat, in particular the 27th Fighter Bomber Group. Charles Dill kept very good records and has collected a lot of info about the group he flew with in Italy.



http://www.charlies-web.com/WWII_med/index.html

[5PointOh]

I'd be happy with a nice allison powered Pony...cannon or not.

[Guppy35]

That doesnt change the fact that your information is wrong. NAA clearly called their own plane 'Apache' before it was ever called 'Mustang.' When the USAAF put the first P-51 into service it was called Apache. So you can say the first offical service name of the British version was Mustang but only for the British and only after delivery.

Many years ago I read an interview of Atwood and Kindelberger where they stated they chose Apache because it would give their fighter a ferocious yet noble image and they were somewhat surprised that the British chose the name of (what they considered to be) a problem wild animal with terrible traits.

Guppy: There were precisely 300 Mustang 1s built. They came looking for 300 P-40s and they took home a better fighter. I dont think you can argue against 150 as being insufficient given some of the other planes and vehicles in the game already.

My understanding was the first order of Mustang Is was 300 with a second order of 300+ more. 

I have no problem with wanting an Allison 51.  My bigger issue is it seems to be another one of those find a way to get another 4 cannon bird in the game.  I've never seen anything to suggest the 4 cannon Mustang was ever used for anything beyond ground support and tac recon.

The first Mustang kill was Yank in the RAF Hollis Hills in a Mustang I over a 190 prior to Dieppe.  The Air Commandos in the CBI had P51As that saw a fair amount of service.  The A36s in the MTO were used a lot.

My bigger issue is clouding the wish for 4 cannons behind asking for an Allison Mustang.  I say the same when folks start the howl for a 4 cannon Spit.  I love Spits and their history, but a 4 cannon Spit doesn't fit in the game anymore then a 4 cannon Mustang in my opinion.

If it's all about an Allison Mustang then the more numerous combat examples would be just as welcome

[Chalenge]

Well I disagree and so what if it has cannons so do a lot of planes already in the game. Hollis Hills flew with RCAF 414 Sqn in the Mustang Mk I and lastly in the Mk IA (first kill was in a Mk I) and yes he was the first 'Mustang Ace' as of June 11 1943 (at that time flying the Mk IA as Tac/R groups had been refitted.

You dont seem to understand that this isnt going to be a four cannon Mustang. Its a four cannon Apache and it will be a completely different animal. It wont be as fast it wont have the same endurance and it will never claim the same throne but it may very well earn a niche as an American perk ride. Who can say without a trial in the game? To write it out offhandedly is disingenuous to honesty of history and to air combat as a whole. How many four cannon birds are simply not up to snuff in the game? Certainly the Typhoon has a place as a perk ride in MW but in LW it seldom is so potent as to be outstanding and neither would the P-51 Apache.

Certainly I dont believe this plane will be the end all of dogfighters but I do believe it will be a new mix of potential that just is not met in any other guise and it will add a great deal of fun to many and a great deal of anguish to others. You obviously will be in the anguish crowd.  

[Delirium]

My bigger issue is clouding the wish for 4 cannons behind asking for an Allison Mustang.  I say the same when folks start the howl for a 4 cannon Spit.  I love Spits and their history, but a 4 cannon Spit doesn't fit in the game anymore then a 4 cannon Mustang in my opinion.

+1

[uptown]

I'll take every pony variant they want to put in the game. Especially the cannon model! I'm sure we've all tried to take a town building, ack, or gvs out with 4 .50s and found that is pretty much a waste of time. Why not throw some 20 mils in the pony? If the plane was used in WW2 it should be in AH2 (except for the B29).
I think we can all agree that the earlier 51 variants did not perform as well as the later models, so I would think it'd be much more of a challenge to fly well. One would not simply be able to run from the fight as most do with the D and B models.

As far as priority goes, i think the earlier pony models should have been introduced before the D model.

The P51 plane set deserves a low alt attack aircraft. Sure we could use 38s or jugs for the same type of missions but if the P51 is what you fly, you want to do the job in a P51.

Lets put something in the game that will get some use. The last 2 or 3 updates have given us ....well not much in terms of aircraft.

[waystin2]

+1

[Karnak]

That doesnt change the fact that your information is wrong. NAA clearly called their own plane 'Apache' before it was ever called 'Mustang.' When the USAAF put the first P-51 into service it was called Apache. So you can say the first offical service name of the British version was Mustang but only for the British and only after delivery.

How can I be wrong about something I didn't even comment on?  I made no comment at all about the name.

All I said was that the Apache didn't have four 20mm cannons as is always requested.  Guppy added more detail on that count.  The quad 20mm version was a rare version compared with the machine gun armed versions were far more common.  To ask for the rare 20mm armed version does make it look like you are more concerned with getting the cannons than the A-36.


EDIT:

The problem with putting rare things that are imbalancing into AH is that they end up drowning out the things that did the real work and it stops feeling like a WWII game.  Quad cannon Mustangs and Spits are one of the things that fit into that category.  I could see the quad cannons being added as a perk option, if HTC ever gets the perk loadout system implemented.  Otherwise, you would simply see the cannon armed Mustang much too frequently, just as we did with the cannon armed F4U.


Interesting photo:

http://www.shorpy.com/node/1138?size=_original

And one most of us have seen repeatedly:

http://www.shorpy.com/p-51-mustang?size=_original

[Chalenge]

Karnak: Thats exactly where you are wrong. The P-51 with the four 20mm is the Apache and that didnt change until about the time Hills became an ace in it. The A-36 was called both Apache and Mustang (as well as Invader but neither officially or by the factory).

I hate to be the one to inform you that this game isnt about recreating WWII. This game is about air combat (and to some extent ground combat as far as it influences air combat) and adding an element of interest like the P-51 Apache can only enrich choices and whether you like to accept it or not this airplane will be a fighter and I believe more of a turn fighter than a boom and zoomer.

I would love to see this and the A-36 added. Yes the base takers would have a new aircraft as well as the tank killers and furballers too.

[Karnak]

Swarms of 20mm armed P-51s would not enrich it, quite the opposite.

[Chalenge]

I think your imagination is getting away from you and quite frankly you are worrying about something you dont know for sure would even happen. I mean after all! Do you lay awake at night worrying that one day the enemy will group up in swarms of Typhoons and come hunting? Of course not so stop being ridiculous.

[Karnak]

I think your imagination is getting away from you and quite frankly you are worrying about something you dont know for sure would even happen. I mean after all! Do you lay awake at night worrying that one day the enemy will group up in swarms of Typhoons and come hunting? Of course not so stop being ridiculous.

Were you here when the F4U-1C was free and unchecked, before the perk system?  I was.