P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.

[Vinkman]

The P-38J is racking up quite a kill ratio in the MA. In fact it is the highest non-perk plane in the MA.(see table below)  I did a little digging and discovered that a dozen or so pilots have kill ratios over 8:1 in this plane and fly it almost exlusively which is driving up it's kill ratio. I did this investigation because lately this historically average plane has been untouchable in 1 on 1s, and the deaths have all come via the same tactic on the part of the 38 driver, which is to pull the plane vertical, wait for the opponent to stall out, rudder/throttle over, dive and make the kill. What makes this so strange is the seemingly incredible ability of the 38 to climb vertically, and rudder over, regardless of e-state. On paper this plane has inferior power to weight, climb rate, and acceration numbers compared to most planes in the MA. Perhaps a dual throttle control can allow for rapid yaw compared to centerline powered aircraft that need to rely on rudder only (hence airspeed), but that doesn't explain the 38's seemingly exeptional vertical climb and stall performance. I suspect a cabal of 38 drivers have discovered something about the P-38 flight model that can be exploited in the MA and are utilizing it to rack up these lopsided kill ratios. We non-38 drivers owe it to ourselves to figure out what's up. I  would like to analyze this 38 manuever more objectively, and get the word out to all MA pilots the what-to-do's when a 38 pilots goes vertical. With a little collective wisdom maybe we can put these guys back in their historical place.
So I'm asking for anyone that wishes to participate, to film your missions and post any 38-goes-vertical-rudders-over-and-kills-me films you get. Then we can analyze e-state, relative speeds etc etc and see what's up.

I don't mean to over emphasize the idea of some kind of flight model error. The real point of this post is to understand the tactic objectively to develop a counter.
 
Plane Name      Kills   Deaths   Kill/Death Ratio     
Me 163B                   531   76   6.9     
Tempest                   3552   541   6.55     
Me 262         2233   370   6.02     
F4U-4         2307   911   2.53     
F4U-1C         4666   1962   2.38     
P-38J         6797   3805   1.79     
Typhoon IB      11265   7537   1.49     
Ta 152H                   1573   1098   1.43     
P-47-D11                   1004   708   1.42     
Ki-84-Ia         4649   3410   1.36     
Ki-61         1367   1056   1.29     
Fw 190D-9      7599   6002   1.27     
Bf 109K-4      5527   4343   1.27     
F4U-1A         6139   4902   1.25     
Spitfire Mk XIV      863   698   1.23     
A-20G         2600   2123   1.22     
Fw 190A-5      2625   2190   1.2     
P-51D         21910   18937   1.16     
P-47-D25                   953   821   1.16     
N1K2         9274   8046   1.15     
Hurricane Mk IIC                4572   3991   1.15     
Bf 109G-14      3243   2833   1.14     
C.205         2616   2305   1.13     
P-38G         651   600   1.08     
Spitfire Mk XVI      17799   16767   1.06     
La-7         6656   6264   1.06     
Fw 190A-8      7213   6912   1.04     
P-51B         2057   1977   1.04     
Bf 109G-6      1634   1572   1.04     
Spitfire Mk IX      5611   5527   1.02     
Yak-9U         3146   3074   1.02     
Il-2         8118   8128   1   

[MjTalon]

Hey hey hey, what's with all the investigation on the B-38.

 

[StokesAk]

Perk the P-38!!


But really it climbs, rolls, and stalls nicely because of the counter rotation props.

Also it is very hard to fly making people who jump in it good pilots and able to fight, the Spit16 on the other hand requires little skill and therefore many new players fly it lowering its k/d.

[MjTalon]

*awaits for the mighty 12*



 

[Strip]

You assume that plane attributes are the major factor.....

The reality is the caliber of pilots flying them makes a big difference. Its why you see the P-47D11 so high up there. The P-38J is a plane favored only by a select few, and flown extremely well. Your analysis is incorrect in assuming that k/d should resemble WW2 levels.

There isn't some bug, more like a statistical bump spurred on by good piloting.

Strip

[MjTalon]

Just as Strip indicated, the P-38 has a solid hardcore fan base that attracts good sticks.

[Vinkman]

The reality is the caliber of pilots flying them makes a big difference. Its why you see the P-47D11 so high up there. The P-38J is a plane favored only by a select few, and flown extremely well.
There isn't some bug, more like a statistical bump spurred on by good piloting.

Strip

This is probably true Strip. I hope to analyse the tactic and understand how to counter.

[Sol75]

It's all about the blender man....

That and the SAPP only dot commands...

 

[Raptor]

Your analysis is incorrect in assuming that k/d should resemble WW2 levels.

The P38 had the highest K/D ratio among all USAAC planes, not to mention the top scoring US Aces of WW2 flew P38s.

[FireDrgn]

Its the pilots  I would recommend studying the pilots that fly them.....

[Guppy35]

We can go into details of the SAPP conspiracy

[VonMessa]

Pee 38's hide their E-state well.

It is very hard to judge their E-state by looks or just a glance alone, especially in a furball or dogfight.

Best way to counter?

Check roster for SAPP guys.  
If they are on the roster, don't follow any 38's into the vertical unless you have LOTS of E or are in a plane that's hard to hang from it's prop like a 109 K-4, and even then, be cautious.  

[Vinkman]

Just as Strip indicated, the P-38 has a solid hardcore fan base that attracts good sticks.

So MJTalon are you a self professed good stick?  
Seriously, I assume you fly it regularly, Is this a favorite manuever? Do you use dual throttles? and does manipulating them independently help?  I can't seem to replicate this myself (I am a self professed non-good stick) but I only have a single throttle.

[mtnman]

This is probably true Strip. I hope to analyse the tactic and understand how to counter.

The tactic you describe sounds like a "rope".

The counter is to NOT follow the guy up, stall under him, and allow him to drop on you for the kill.  It's really as simple as that.  The rope fails if the intended victim refuses to be roped...

Of course, he may still kill you with a different tactic, but the rope will have failed, hehe!

The rope is a preferred tactic for many pilots, whether in the P38 or not.

Lots of info on this in the Help and Training forums.

[Vinkman]

Pee 38's hide their E-state well.

It is very hard to judge their E-state by looks or just a glance alone, especially in a furball or dogfight.

Best way to counter?

Check roster for SAPP guys.  
If they are on the roster, don't follow any 38's into the vertical unless you have LOTS of E or are in a plane that's hard to hang from it's prop like a 109 K-4, and even then, be cautious.  

   I believe the e-state comment. I have often felt I must have judged incorrectly. It's why I want to check some film and confirm.