Author Topic: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.  (Read 53751 times)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6125
Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #270 on: September 26, 2009, 11:39:47 AM »
actually most comments i have heard over in WB from AH transplants is that it is too hard and they leave ...

although, no offense to anyone, the player base is much smaller there so there are far fewer baby seals to club.

also i do not explore the games beyond real world ACM much so in regards to the relative tricks, i admit i am not so familiar with those.

after flying both it is clear that the builders were the same and i find little real differences in the current products FM wise.  the newest FMs in WB are imo the best i have flown so far in MMOLVAC but there are only 2 of those.

neither set seems to be as well regarded as WB-2.xx (possibly nostalgia) or has as well defined envelopes as AW classic had(just obvious imo). 

i am not sure why and i am not sure where the "accuracy" advantage lies but in regards to the flaps ...

their use in combat was not at all as it is being used in the game and investigations will show anyone who cares to look why.

the structures were not that different type to type and plane to plane in effect or structural limits, they were all designed to handle the same forces and operated under the same effects, no matter what priorities were emphasized in the respective POHs ...

no offense to any one or any product intended just my opinions ...

mostly.

++S++

t

i was away, and will be away most of the weekend, ya'll have fun now ...

 


Your assumption that flap structure, type, and operation are not that different from plane to plane is fundamentally flawed and without any basis.

The various forms of flaps are only similar in their most basic intent. Their operation and their effects, therefor their usefulness in different situations, were completely different.

This was demonstrated for your benefit in the thread on flaps.

Given what I've read of your posts, that you make those assumptions does not surprise me, just as I was not surprised to see you make the assumption that the P-38J-25-Lo and later P-38's were equipped with "dive breaks" (sic).

Likewise, your assumption that the P-38 was not that maneuverable, and instead reallies on "tricks, and trixy(sic) flying" is also without basis in fact, or even merit.

The only thing you get "right" is that the use of flaps in the game is far removed from what it was in real life for one reason, that you do not really die here, so you can afford to get low and slow, and make high risk maneuvers in order to try to score a kill when a pilot who actually risked losing his life would not have done so under any but the most extreme circumstances, where it was his only chance to survive at all.

"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Steve

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6728
Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #271 on: September 26, 2009, 11:41:15 AM »
skeptical but go ahead and knock yourself out ...

the word "break" should give you some insight into the futility of that quest though

IMO of course hehe

++S++

t


The word is "brake"  Just saying.. since you're so rarely wrong
Member: Hot Soup Mafia - Cream of Myshroom
Army of Muppets  Yes, my ingame name is Steve

Offline Masherbrum

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22408
Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #272 on: September 26, 2009, 11:44:01 AM »
of course they did, all experienced pilots who had them (low deflection flaps) available knew they could use them in combat and often did. 

however the specifics of when, why, and to what extent they used them are as different in the games compared to the real world as the flaps and their effects are different in the games compared to the real world. probably different in direct relation to how differently flaps work in the real world compared to the games.

i.e. could flaps give you some more turn to solve an angle in the real word?  yes absolutely.

would flaps make an inherently inferior maneuvering aircraft a superior maneuvering aircraft? no absolutely not.  that is just how it is in the real world. in the game not so much.

++S++

t

no offense ... 

It never ceases to amaze me how people preach about something they know very little about.   You sir, know very little about the P-38. 
-=Most Wanted=-

FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC

Offline B4Buster

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4816
Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #273 on: September 26, 2009, 11:44:55 AM »
The word is "brake"  Just saying.. since you're so rarely wrong

 :lol

Steve, he is very confident in his posts, maybe you are in fact wrong

 :noid Don't second guess yourself  :D
"I was a door gunner on the space shuttle Columbia" - Scott12B

Offline Masherbrum

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22408
Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #274 on: September 26, 2009, 11:45:42 AM »
:lol

Steve, he is very confident in his posts, maybe you are in fact wrong

 :noid Don't second guess yourself  :D

 :rofl
-=Most Wanted=-

FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC

Offline Steve

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6728
Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #275 on: September 26, 2009, 11:51:22 AM »
:lol

Steve, he is very confident in his posts, maybe you are in fact wrong

 :noid Don't second guess yourself  :D

 :lol

 :uhoh
Member: Hot Soup Mafia - Cream of Myshroom
Army of Muppets  Yes, my ingame name is Steve

Offline B4Buster

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4816
Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #276 on: September 26, 2009, 11:53:01 AM »

i can be as wrong as anyone, that is why i am very confident in what i post, or i don't post it. 


see
"I was a door gunner on the space shuttle Columbia" - Scott12B

Offline CAP1

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22287
      • The Axis Vs Allies Arena
Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #277 on: September 26, 2009, 12:15:32 PM »
well, although he's being a little thick...........we should try to educate him. if after trying that.......well......


then dog pile on da wabbit!!
 :aok
ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #278 on: September 26, 2009, 12:17:48 PM »
well, although he's being a little thick...........we should try to educate him. if after trying that.......well......


then dog pile on da wabbit!!
 :aok

QFT
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline helbent

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 657
Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #279 on: September 26, 2009, 01:51:06 PM »
My response is to the original post.

I have been flying the 38 almost exclusively for a couple years now.  I do not see how the 38 is unbeatable in the vert.  Alot of my engagements are of the vertical type and get my butt handed to me quite frequently by many planes.  Ive been caught while in vert, stall or HOd otw back down (which drives me nuts).  The 38 is not the only plane that can hang on the prop.

Granted, I am in no way an "elite" 38 driver. (Sappers will probably confirm this)  I have become soo bored with the rope and the kamikaze vert HOers that im trying to rope, that Id much rather be on the deck in the turnfight.

HB
Creator and original CO of the now HiJacked Squad -=Hell Hounds=-
Never argue with an idiot.  They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
Avator by fugi.

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20385
Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #280 on: September 26, 2009, 02:30:49 PM »
Following up on what helbent said, and in response to the original post.  I think what you'll find is that for better or worse there is a core group of 38 drivers who are looking for nothing more then a good fight, more often then not on the deck in a furball.  I do believe that some of that core group have gotten very good at it.  I don't count myself as one of those guys, but hope to get there at some point.  It's the pushing of the envelope in the 38 that keeps me going.  I think the initial poster should consider the move he saw and wants to counter as just one move in the 38 drivers inventory.  And it isn't the one that's pushed the K/D of the 38J to where it is.  It is the 38 drivers that have done that.

If there is one thing about the SAPP stuff I'm 'proud' of, its that the message is that fighting and having fun in the 38 is the only thing that matters. 

I think if you looked at other plane types you'd find the same thing.  As an example there are some seriously hard core 109 drivers out there.  Like the 38 people I believe they continue to push the 109s as they challenge themselves beyond the easiest route to a kill.  KillnU in a 109G14 and I had a knock down drag out 1 v 1 in the middle of a furball the other day.  He finally got me, but it didn't matter as the stick bending, trying to get the most out of my 38G part of the fight was what made it worthwhile.  It hasn't happened in a while, but Agent360 and I have had some of those same push it to the limit on the deck fights 109K4 to 38G as well.  Nothing more fun then that.

I don't agree with Karnak about the 38 being and easy bird to fly.  I do believe that it could look that way if a person only flew the 38 the easy way which is to hang above the crowd and BnZ/ rope em to death.  Only flying it that way would be 'safe', but boring.  Finding the edges of the 38s is not an easy thing to do.  Learning to knife fight in it, is not the same as hopping in a Spit 16.

Again, the guys skewing the K/D don't fly the 38J the 'easy' way.  They've taken it to the edges and learned to fight in it and live.  Someday I'll get there in the 38G too! :)

Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline thorsim

  • Parolee
  • Restricted
  • ****
  • Posts: 1029
      • The Luftwhiner Lounge
Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #281 on: September 26, 2009, 03:06:00 PM »
doh, let down by spell check again ...

my apologies for you all not being able to understand what i was talking about ...

clearly you all can continue to feel secure in your virtual representation of reality ...

never mind ...

  >>> 60deg flap deployed in dogfights at or near your stall speeds <<<

sure you guys talk to real pilots, sure you do ...



THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
Axis Co-Op
Quote from: any number of idiots here
blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline B4Buster

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4816
Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #282 on: September 26, 2009, 03:16:20 PM »
doh, let down by spell check again ...

my apologies for you all not being able to understand what i was talking about ...

clearly you all can continue to feel secure in your virtual representation of reality ...

never mind ...

  >>> 60deg flap deployed in dogfights at or near your stall speeds <<<

sure you guys talk to real pilots, sure you do ...





You need to get out more, this is a game.
"I was a door gunner on the space shuttle Columbia" - Scott12B

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20385
Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #283 on: September 26, 2009, 03:21:54 PM »
doh, let down by spell check again ...

my apologies for you all not being able to understand what i was talking about ...

clearly you all can continue to feel secure in your virtual representation of reality ...

never mind ...

  >>> 60deg flap deployed in dogfights at or near your stall speeds <<<

sure you guys talk to real pilots, sure you do ...





I've been talking to WW2 pilot vets for the last 30 years, many of them 38 drivers.  You?
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Steve

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6728
Re: P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.
« Reply #284 on: September 26, 2009, 03:41:11 PM »
I've been talking to WW2 pilot vets for the last 30 years, many of them 38 drivers.  You?

doesn't matter. Another noob comes into the game to tell all the vets how stupid they are. We get a couple each year.
Member: Hot Soup Mafia - Cream of Myshroom
Army of Muppets  Yes, my ingame name is Steve