Author Topic: P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug  (Read 1418 times)

Offline Buzzbait

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P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2001, 09:09:00 PM »
S! Pyro

I will quote Robert Johnson from his biography, "Thunderbolt":  (Johnson flew with the 56th Fighter Group)

"New Year's day.  (1944)  And what a present we received.  We flew to a maintenance depot at Wattisham to have the Thunderbolts modified.  Our engineering officers were making a terrific fuss over a new propellor designed especially for the Thunderbolts.  They insisted that the fat paddle blades of the new propellors would bring a tremendous boost in performance, that the increased blade area would permit the props to make the greatest use of the Thunderbolt's 2,000 horsepower.   We listened to their enthusiastic ramblings with more than a grain of salt -  And never were we more mistaken.

     Four days later, (that would be January 5th) we flew a Ramrod to Munster, the first time we went into combat with the paddle blade propellors."

Johnson's entire Group was re-equipped with the Paddle blade props at the same time.  The other active P-47 Squadrons also were upgraded at the same time.  And Johnson's model of P-47 was the same he had been flying for 5 months, since July when he had his aircraft shot up badly.   All the older model P-47's were upgraded.

Offline Buzzbait

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P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2001, 09:19:00 PM »
S! Pyro

If you want to be most accurate, you will include both options for the D11.  Pilots should be able to select either with, or without the paddle blade prop.  That way, the aircraft can be used for scenarios pre-January '44 as well as after.

Offline Sancho

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P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2001, 09:34:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Pyro:
Prop change happened on the -22.

This is correct only as far as factory equipped P-47s went.  All jugs already in action were upgraded with paddle blade props around New Years, 1944.

See Buzzbait's quote from Thunderbolt! above.  Also, in David McLaren's Beware the Thunderbolt! The 56th FG in WW2, the following entry is made recording the events of January 4, 1944:
 
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VIII FC FO212, Ramrods to Munster.  All P-47 groups operational.  This was the first mission by the 56th Fighter Group with P-47s now equipped with the "paddle bladed" props.  The new props had either Curtiss "long-wide" or A.O. Smith "short-wide" blades.  Now all the pilots were equally impressed with the improved version...

A couple months ago, I had the good fortune of sitting next to a real live P-47 pilot on an airline flight we were coincidentally both on.  Col. Earl Kiergass of the 368th FG (AH's -30 wears 368th colors) answered my questions and told me some war stories. One of the things I asked him about was when they got the paddle blades, to which he responded early 1944. Paddle blades were retrofitted on existing jugs in theatre well before they were standard equipment, starting as you noted on the dash 22.
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Offline Buzzbait

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P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2001, 11:35:00 PM »
S! Pyro

The performance of the P-47 D Razorback with water injection and paddle blade propellor was significantly better than the later model P-47 D’s, and far improved over the Razorbacks without paddle blades.

Here are some more quotes from Robert Johnson, in particular from the first mission to Munster:

“With four Messerschmitts directly beneath me, I rolled to my left to pull in directly behind them.  My fighter quivered, and began to shake badly, as if partially stalled.  The next thing I knew, I was in a dive and wow!  What a dive!  I hauled back on the stick, afraid the engine would tear right out of the mounts.  What I didn’t realize was that the new propellor was making all the difference.  I called to Gabreski,  “Get ‘em Gabby!  Something’s wrong with my Ship!”

He returned to base to have his fighter checked.  A few days later during a test flight he realized what he was feeling was the greatly increased pull of the prop:

“But what a difference these blades made.  At 8,000 feet I pulled the Thunderbolt into a steep climb.  Normally she’d zoom quickly and then slow down, rapidly approaching a stall.  But now – the Jug soared up like she’d gone crazy.  Another Thunderbolt was in the air and I pulled alongside, signalling for a climb.  I’m not an engineering officer, and I don’t know the exact feet per minute that we climbed.   But I left that other fighter behind as if he were standing still.  The Jug stood on her tail and howled her way into the sky.”

Of course as Johnson says, these are seat of the pants impressions, not scientific tests.  But obviously there was a significant improvement.

Prior to discovering Flight Sims, I had the opportunity to see some data re. the relative efficiency of the Paddle Blade props versus the ordinary ‘toothpick’ props.  My memory was that there was a very significant difference.  Unfortunately I have not been able to find that data source again.  But I know it is out there and I’ll bet you or some of the other very knowledgeable people on this board probably have access to this information.

Even though there is probably not factory acceleration or climb data available for D11’s equipped with paddle blade props, it should still be relatively easy to extrapolate the likely performance of a modified D11.  Using the figures from the D-25 and D-30 and factoring the weight difference should provide a good approximation.

AH deserves a Razorback Jug with the performance which it historically had.  This aircraft was crucial to the victory of the 8th A.A.F., and should be represented in all its glory.    

Offline -ammo-

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P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2001, 01:57:00 PM »
Dont know about everyone else, but I am nominating buzzbait for President

Commanding Officer, 56 Fighter Group
Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Offline Buzzbait

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P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2001, 02:04:00 PM »
S!

Sorry, I don't qualify...  I'm a Canuck.  

But I love Jugs.


                    Cheers Buzzbait

Offline niklas

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P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2001, 02:31:00 PM »
Why are all 3 P47 latewar ´44 models with water-injection etc??

I mean only one of 4 109 has mw50. The rest is mid/mid-early war.

Why no early P47C without water-injection

niklas

Offline gatt

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P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2001, 04:08:00 PM »
Nice to come back to this board and see that nothing has changed  
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline SirLoin

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P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2001, 04:20:00 PM »
Ok,I found it..It did disappear from the main thread though.How come it's in Today's Active Topics but not in original forum?<S!>
**JOKER'S JOKERS**

Offline SirLoin

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P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2001, 05:55:00 PM »
Turns out there was something amiss with the Jug..Once again my gut FM feeling was bang on...People,please quit slamming me for my inputs on plane FM's.TY<S!>
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Offline Buzzbait

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P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2001, 10:00:00 PM »
S! Niklas

You should try not to let your obvious bias colour your comments so much.  Instead a little research on your part would be in order.

The P-47C rarely saw in combat.  It was very quickly replaced in the spring of 1943 by the P-47D Razorback.  From my understand, the P-47D's all had water injection factory installed starting with the D-5 model.  And all the earlier model D's in combat formations were immediatly retro-fitted with the modification.

By the way, if you have been reading this board at all, you will remember I suggested the 109G6 with the DB605ASM engine be added to the AH planeset.  The G-10 was not introduced until late May and June of 1944.  (After the 8th A.A.F. had won the crucial battles leading up to the D-Day invasion)  Up until that time, the methanol injected 109's were G-6 models.  (And the G-10 we have here is of course, actually a K-4)  Adding this 109 model would give a G-6 with a top speed of around 428mph.  Not all the 109's were so equipped, but a significant number, especially those used to escort the Heavy Fighter Staffels.  These planes are required for an accurate Spring 1944 Strat. bombing scenario.

Of course, so is the P-38J, the B-17F, a Spit IXLF and a B-24.

               Cheers Buzzbait

Offline R4M

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P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2001, 02:01:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Sancho:
This is correct only as far as factory equipped P-47s went. All jugs already in action were upgraded with paddle blade props around New Years, 1944.



Yes, just as the 109G6 was fitted with MW50 at that time. The argument so far for the no-MW50 for the 109G6 was because "it made it suitable for 1943 scenarios".

so, the D11 without paddle prop (I think it indeed has Water injection) is so because "it makes it suitable for 1943 scenarios"    

Offline niklas

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P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2001, 03:15:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Buzzbait:
S! Niklas

You should try not to let your obvious bias colour your comments so much.  Instead a little research on your part would be in order.
Fact is that germans captured a P47 without water-injection (i have to check when exactly). So this was not as widly used as you try to tell me.
 
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By the way, if you have been reading this board at all, you will remember I suggested the 109G6 with the DB605ASM engine be added to the AH planeset.
I didn´t say anything against you nor can i remember all of your postings. I hope you can understand that i don´t print out your postings and hang them over my bed to have them alway in front of me even while sleeping  

 
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(And the G-10 we have here is of course, actually a K-4)  Adding this 109 model would give a G-6 with a top speed of around 428mph
hmm when an aerodynamic poor G-6 was already able to fly so fast, then the AH-performance doesn´t sound so wrong for an improved G-10 with a better engine.

btw
 
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As a result, it is underweight by that difference in weight, about 390 pounds.
Can a mistake of 390pounds for a 15000lb fighter be an explanation?

niklas


Offline -ammo-

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P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2001, 04:45:00 AM »
Who sent out invatations to th luftwhiners? I thought clearly they werent invited

Seriously, the D11 we have would be historically and accurately protrayed with a paddle blade prop, given that it was an early 44 bird..not a '43 bird and it is also entirely accurate that they were alll fitted in the field with these mods...all of them.

as far as the 109 thing..different thread needs to be opened for that subject, maybe with our concern over the P-47 we have struck some interest up for the 109 for the LWobbles... Your welcome Now go make your own thread and provide some evidnece with dates to get your AC corrected.
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Offline janneh

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P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2001, 06:08:00 AM »
Hehe!
Interesting how threads content changes rapidly.
P-47 to 109
109 to P-47 as thread "109G-6 with or without MW 50 " is going to...
And this thread was about -11 being too good and now it ends up that -11 should have even better prop, heheh


I haven't noticed any qualities that would rise -11 over to -30. But OTOH, I haven't flown it much...

Uh oh, back to paddle blade prop -subject!