Author Topic: P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug  (Read 1359 times)

Offline Daff

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 338
P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2001, 08:45:00 AM »
"So this was not as widly used as you try to tell me."

Oh yes, it was. It wasnt factory installed from until the D-11 onwards, but all P-47s from the C-5 onwards had provisions for it and pretty much all P-47's were retro-fitted with it.
If the P-47 in question was captured early/mid '43, yes then it probably didnt have a water-injection.

Daff

------------------
CO, 56th Fighter Group
 www.56thfightergroup.org
This is Yardstick, follow me"

Offline Buzzbait

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1141
P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2001, 02:36:00 PM »
S!| Niklas

Ok, let`s deal with your points :

You say the Germans captured a P-47C without water injection.  So??   Both sides in WWII captured large numbers of enemy aircraft.  For example the British captures of German aircraft were substantial including :

30+ 109 E`s
20+ 109F`s
30+ 109G`s
30+ 190`s

Note, these are aircraft in either flyable condition, or possible to make flyable with minor repairs.  They do not include wrecks or crashed aircraft.

It so happens that the first 190D captured was a model without MW-50.  Does this mean I run screaming to the AH Bulletin board demanding that the 190D have its top speed reduced to 426mph?  Of course not.

The fact is, the German`s captured a LOT more P-47D`s with Water injection.

These are the totals of P-47 models produced :

P-47B :  170   The 47B was never deployed to Europe.  The 56th Fighter Group received some of these aircraft when it was based in New York, but left them behind when it was deployed to Britain.

P-47C :  602  The first 47C rolled off the production lines on September 14t h 1942, in December `42 it equipped the 4th , 78th, and 56th Fighter Groups in Britain.  Last production of this model was in late December `42 or early `43.  The Groups equipped with 47C`s were held out of combat until March 10th `43 when they flew their first sweep.  They did not see combat until April 15th `43 when 3 P-47C`s were lost.  (The 47`s claimed 3 German aircraft)  Perhaps one of these was the aircraft you are mentioning.  But even after that date missions for the U.S. Fighter Groups were restricted, because the aircraft were not equipped with auxiliary tanks and couldn`t escort the B-17`s any significant distance.  Combat was very limited.  By this time, the first 47D`s were being delivered to the Combat Groups.  The existing 47C`s were also being modified.  There was little difference between the late 47C and the early 47D.  Their fuselages were essentially the same and they both had the same Pratt and Whitney 2800 Double Wasp engine,  rated at a base 2,000 horsepower.  It was a simple matter to modify the 47C`s to adopt the 47D`s engine  changes.  At the same time the 47C`s were modified so they could accept a drop tank.

P47D :  12,602  (note, this figure does not include the 47G, 47M, 47N etc.)  The 47D`s began to equip the American Fighter groups in early `43.  First models of the 47D did not have water injection, but were quickly superseded by those which did.  The 47D`s came standard with a mounting to fit a center drop tank.  By July `43 when they began longer range escort missions, all the 47`s equipping the Fighter Groups were either 47D`s or 47C`s modified to be indistinguishable from 47D`s.

From the above production figures, you can see that the 47C was a minor variant when you look at the number produced when compared to the numbers of 47D`s.  There is no reason to incude it rather than the 47D Razorback.

Rather than trying to sabotage the creation of an accurate FM for an American aircraft, why don`t you instead put together a well thought out thread on the 109G`s with Methanol.  You could go back and find my thread, (which had many positive responses) and bring it back to the top of the board with your own (I would hope) carefully researched facts.

                                  Cheers Buzzbait

Offline Buzzbait

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1141
P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2001, 03:16:00 PM »
S! Pyro

The reason I am putting my case on the issue of the Razorback P-47D with Paddle blade prop is that it was the best performing P-47 model prior to the P-47M.  (Which is likely to be a perk, if  it arrives)  Since almost every other aircraft has a best model for the era, it seems only fair the P-47`s also have their `Best`.  Nobody complained when the 190D was the later model with MW-50 introduced in January `45, instead of the earlier model without methanol, which was present through the late Summer and Fall of `44.

But by all means, allow it to be equipped with or without paddle blades.

Offline niklas

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2001, 04:48:00 PM »
S! Buzzbait

I did NOT say that germans captured a P47C !!! I said they captured a P47 without water-injection!!!

the current AH-fw190D HAS ALREADY a topspeed of only 426mph, my friend, with mw50!!!!

I donīt believe that you know exactly how many P47 with w.i. were captured.

Maybe you donīt understand it, but i took the 109 only for a comparison purpose.

You want 3 P47 with paddle blades and water-injection? ok, but tell me where are the main differences then in the planeset?
The 109 series could have 4 smiliar high performance fighter, too. 109k G6 G10 G14, they all could be here as 44-45 models with mw50 and only slight differences in armment ,look  and performance- But except for one theyīre NOT here.

So why are in opposite to the 109 series 3 P47 included in the game with smiliar performance? Whatīs so wrong with the question?
And you want to make the difference even smaller.

btw, who is whining at the moment because he doesnīt have "the best performing P-47 model prior to the P-47M" LOL

niklas


 

Offline Buzzbait

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1141
P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2001, 06:40:00 PM »
S! Niklas

If they captured a P-47 without water injection, then it was very likely a P-47C or early P-47D.  Either would have occurred likely in early to mid 1943.  And no, I don`t know how many P-47`s were captured.  My understanding is that the information was lost along with many files during the destruction of Berlin.  However I have seen many photographs of captured Allied aircraft in German markings, including 3 P-47D`s.  (Bubble top P-47D`s)  I have not seen any P-47C`s.

In any case your argument is still specious.  The fact is, P-47C`s were saw very little combat.  And those P-47D`s without water injection were all upgraded as soon as the kits became available.

What does this mean?  It means very few non-water injected P-47`s saw combat.  Just because you read of one captured P-47 without water injection doesn`t automatically mean all the P-47`s in Europe are reduced to that equipement type.

So don`t waste any more of our time trying to  downgrade the performance of Allied aircraft  to the lowest possible standard while you insist on the best possible performance for the Luftwaffe planes.

Have a little balance my friend and you`ll get more respect.

Offline SirLoin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5707
P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
P47M..Wasn't that an unarmed recon varient?<S!>
**JOKER'S JOKERS**

Offline SFRT - Frenchy

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5420
      • http://home.CFL.rr.com/rauns/menu.htm
P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2001, 09:44:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by SirLoin:
P47M..Wasn't that an unarmed recon varient?<S!>

Now Sirloin, you die!  get him boys!
<Exicted goup war shoots in the background>
Dat jugs bro.

Terror flieger since 1941.
------------------------

Offline funkedup

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9466
      • http://www.raf303.org/
P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2001, 02:46:00 AM »
Buzzbait I think you and Niklas are having a communication problem.  Niklas is just wondering why we have three functionally identical Jugs in the planeset.  

It would be useful for scenarios to have one of really high performance (e.g. P-47M) and one of low performance (e.g. dry P-47C), just as it would be useful to have an MW 50 equipped Me 109G-6 to bridge the gap between the dry G-6 and the wet G-10 in the current planeset.  This gives scenario designers an extra degree of freedom to create balanced orders of battle.

Offline Buzzbait

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1141
P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2001, 11:29:00 AM »
S! Funked Up

I don`t see the point in having a P-47C.  As I said it saw combat very rarely.  And to emasculate the P-47D Razorback model, which is the best performing unperked P-47 that would be seen, is unfair.  

You are calling for a Spit IXLF.  (so am I)  The reason:  The existing Spit IXF is not really representative of the performance which the Spit IX series had.  And since you are not going to get the Spit XIV in an unperked model, then you want the best unperked Spit you can get.  (Of course when the other pilots see how good the IXLF is, they`ll be screaming for it to be perked...  ;)  )

The argument is the same for both planes.

By the way, Niklas is wrong about the FW190D.  The AH plane has the performance of a D with MW-50.  The model without only did 357mph at S.L.  This one does 378.

                Cheers Buzzbait

Offline Buzzbait

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1141
P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2001, 11:33:00 AM »
S! Funked Up

Also for scenarios:

The most likely period for the Razorback D to be required for scenarios is July `43 to July `44.  That is when the aircraft saw most service.  A D11 model WITH, and WITHOUT paddle blade prop would cover this period nicely.

Offline SirLoin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5707
P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2001, 09:16:00 PM »
Turns out there was a varient of P47M that was unarmed and for recon.But most had guns..Anyway,Frenchie..What's up man?P47 is my fave WW2 plane and imho would be the plane I'd choose if I was thrown into that Euro theatre for real.I even built a 1/6 flying scale model that sits nicely between two Top Flite F4uD's..I'll send ya a pic if ya want as I sense you are a Jughead too..(No Archie pics though.. :)<S!>
**JOKER'S JOKERS**

Offline SFRT - Frenchy

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5420
      • http://home.CFL.rr.com/rauns/menu.htm
P47D 11...Seems Too Good For A Jug
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2001, 02:22:00 PM »
Yes yes yes please Sirloin .. send me the picture : Rauns@mindspring.com.

Myself I have this one : http://www.top-flite.com/airplanes/topa0135.html   :D  :D

And this one : (except that the tail is blue on mine's, don't know why it's yellow on the pic) http://www.revell-monogram.com/store/ModelDetail.cfm?Id=60&SubjectId=2&SkillId=0&ScaleId=11&TypeId=0&StartRow=1&FromSearch=1  :D
Dat jugs bro.

Terror flieger since 1941.
------------------------