High Speed Turning Ability

[Noah17]

I'm trying to understand how I can turn better (either higher rate or w/a shorter radius) than other planes.

I've read much in AHWiki about the fact that many planes turn better than others at higher speeds.I've heard about a planes "sweet spot" in corner velocity (don't know what it is in the F4U) and not exactly sure if that means anything more then the best turning speed of the aircraft. As an example I know from history that planes like the F4U and others could out turn the Zero at high speeds in part because the Zero's controls required great physical strength in the pilot to pull and roll the aircraft at those high speeds.

I can't seem to duplicate these same situations in the combat I've experienced so far. Many times I've been in the F4U(my normal ride) and at high speed (325-375MPH or more) and still had the Zero, Spit, late model 109 to name just a few, at least turn with me if not turn inside of me. Now this is in a SUSTAINED FLAT TURN where I'm doing my best to maintain that high speed. I have noticed the difference in the ability of other aircraft to roll which is of course necessary to start the turn...Me in a 0g dive straight down I get to 450-500MPH and the 109 behind me can't roll as fast; I then roll 90degrees and pull to make my escape.

I thought I might be able to maintain a either a shorter radius of turn or with my high speed a better rate of turn. But just can't seem to accomplish that. Any thoughts?

As an aside I've been posting questions to the BBS a lot lately and feel a little bad about it....Sorry to be the annoying kid at the front of the class that's always raising his hand and asking questions.

Thanks again for your help.

[FLS]

I believe your best sustained turn speed is signaled by the onset of the stall horn.  If you search for Badboy's EM posts you'll get more detailed information on your max turn rate, minimum turn radius and comparisons of your aircraft vs other types.

Questions are good, that's what this forum is for. Better here than on country channel. 

[morfiend]

I believe your best sustained turn speed is signaled by the onset of the stall horn.  If you search for Badboy's EM posts you'll get more detailed information on your max turn rate, minimum turn radius and comparisons of your aircraft vs other types.

Questions are good, that's what this forum is for. Better here than on country channel. 

 QFT

   

[Patches1]

I believe you are confusing turning ability with rolling ability. The F4U could not and did not out turn the A6M; but it could out roll it and thus used the vertical to position itself to advantage.

[boomerlu]

I believe you are confusing turning ability with rolling ability. The F4U could not and did not out turn the A6M; but it could out roll it and thus used the vertical to position itself to advantage.

No, OP is talking about excessive stick forces at high speeds.

Thing is, the pilot modeled in AH is quite strong and 325-375 is not quite high enough to out turn a Zero. Keep in mind BOTH aircraft have to be very fast (probably 400+) and that the Corsair's advantage will deteoriate quickly as speed drains down. Basically if you do this, you have a very limited window in which you could out turn said Zero, and if you don't get your kill in that window, best to bug out.

[Saxman]

Your first mistake is trying to flat turn a Zero in a Corsair. NEVER try to follow a Zeke through a flat turn because you WILL lose. You HAVE to use the vertical, where the Corsair can put its horsepower advantage to use to get above him, as well as its superior roll and rudder authority to swing back down and drop in on him. If a Zero flat turns against you don't try to follow him at any speed. Go UP. Roll to center him in your up/forward-up view, and keep rolling to keep him there as you pull through the top. Kicking inside rudder will help tighten up your maneuver. More often than not you'll drop right into the saddle.

[Noah17]

I had thought that if a zero, Spit, 109's (or whatever else doesn't turn as well at high speed) were behind me and the F4U turned better at those higher speeds I could turn as hard as I could without bleeding the speed and the other plane behind wouldn't follow as well. I was expecting that they might turn tighter (shorter radius) but slow in the process thus losing energy and then I (being faster w/higher rate) could go vertical and come down on them. I guess the AHwiki isn't quite right.

In doing this I was looking for an escape maneuver other than just a flat or rolling scissors where I didn't necessarily have to get the Con closer to my 6 and hope that he didn't hit me before overshooting.

Another reason I was hoping for something else was almost a matter of etiquette. Many of these turn-n-burn planes can give you guns defense and point their nose at you all day long unless you either surprised them from behind or, the guy flying the plane really stinks.... This means you have to take a very long time to maneuver with the TnB plane and hope to get behind him or, go for the HO.......I know what most think of the HO. It's a sign of a guy with no skills and no class. But in a furball sometimes it seems like your only choice because if you take time to work on the TnB plane your gonna lose SA and get killed.

When it comes to the Japanese planes (or planes w/in line engines) I've read that many times U.S. Pilots would go HO with a zero, Ki or other with at least with some distance between them. The big radial engines, armor, durability and, ballistics of the U.S. planes and the poor ballistics and lack of armor of the Japanese planes usually gave the win to the American plane. Here in AH I could use the 6 .50's of the F4U and take some HO shots from 600 - 1.0 stay fast then turn away. I haven't tried it because of how the HO is looked at and don't know if my gunnery is good enough to hit from so far away any way......I think you can see what I'm getting at.

[boomerlu]

Noah, what you're describing for "doesn't turn well at high speed" isn't energy bleed. It's high stick forces - requiring more force (from the pilot) to make the aircraft do the same thing. Take a 109 up and dive it to 450 mph and you'll see what I mean. The pilot modeled in AH is only able to exert a given force (50 lbs is what I heard).

If you want an escape maneuver when you are say being chased by a 109, you dive, get up to about 450, then basically do any kind of turn at all. 109 can't follow you (at least not immediately) and you'll likely get enough separation to extend safely.

As far as HO etiquette - it's lame, especially for furballs. A HO or front quarter snapshot is a calculated risk and good pilots will take them when the reward is much greater than the risk or when they are simply willing to take the risk as in the case of Americans in the Pacific. 1v1 is different - why fight at all if you are just going to HO on merge?

Anti TnB furball tactics? Pick 'em. Do a good BnZ pass. Rope 'em if they follow you - take the HO on the rope as usually they can't point their nose as accurately as you.

[Saxman]

The AH Wiki doesn't say ANYTHING about flat turning.

Instantaneous turn is superb at all speeds and she's one of the best at high-speed sustained turns, especially when utilizing energy saving or building maneuvers such as the low yo-yo.

There's no such thing as "turn as hard as I could without bleeding the speed." A flat break is one of the WORST maneuvers for maintaining E no matter how you slice it. As boomer indicates, high-speed sustained flat turns don't remain high speed for long, usually not more than one or two circles at most before you've bled off all that E.

Against Zeros you MUST use the vertical: Either going up where you can use your superior roll and rudder authority to drop on him, or in a descending spiral/low-yo where you can accelerate through the turn, particularly to gain more E for the vertical maneuver (in short: low-yo closes but puts you in a lag pursuit, a high-yo will allow you to gain lead and a shooting solution).

Against Spits and 109s, if he's already in gun range on your six you've really screwed up. The F4U can extend on most IF you can stay alive long enough, but your level acceleration isn't nearly as good. Otherwise you should be able to run on all of them except the K4 and Spit XIV. The 109s you can really throw off by rolling to the right as they strongly resist a roll in that direction at high power settings.

As far as the HO, if a Zeke wants to HO me? Well, he can come and get it.

[Ack-Ack]

The F4U could not and did not out turn the A6M; but it could out roll it and thus used the vertical to position itself to advantage.

You obviously never watched the highly accurate historical TV drama, BaBa Blacksheep.  In the opening credits it clearly showed a Corsair easily out turning and maneuvering the far less nimble Zeke.


ack-ack

[FLS]

You obviously never watched the highly accurate historical TV drama, BaBa Blacksheep.  In the opening credits it clearly showed a Corsair easily out turning and maneuvering the far less nimble Zeke.


ack-ack

It's not the plane it's the pilot. 

[Noah17]

Maybe I didn't explain it clearly. In the copied section of AHwiki it does say "one of the best High Speed Sustained turning aircraft." Although it didn't specifically say flat turn, I believe this to be true. What I was describing in my own actions was more of a turn rate(for he F4U at least) then radius situation. When I said turn as fast as I can without bleeding speed what I meant was rolling the aircraft 90degrees and turn at a rate that would still allow me to stay in the 325+MPH range. This is possible to do without dumping all of your E. You may lose a little altitude....

The point Boomerlu makes about the AH pilot modeled as "superstrong" is perhaps part of what I was missing or hadn't considered. At 350+ the Zero pilot could pull on the stick as much as he wants but the plane ain't gonna turn, it'll go straight until he slows down. The F4U will turn in a wide circle but it will turn....... This is what I was talking about. I've read much more about the pacific war and honestly don't know as much about European aircraft and if this was the same situation. It seems from reading the posts/information here that for some of those aircraft it would be the same but, again I haven't seen it.

I love the game and I'm grateful for all your input. That's what keeps me coming back after getting shot down time and again..... Trying to learn from those who appreciate the history and the competition that the game has to offer. I'm hoping I can  do more of the shooting down then getting shot down.

[FLS]

At 350+ the Zero pilot could pull on the stick as much as he wants but the plane ain't gonna turn, it'll go straight until he slows down.

I understand your point but that is not a true statement about the Zero. My understanding is that the Zero had difficulty rolling to the right at high speeds but it was a problem of relative roll rates not an absolute inability to maneuver. Bear in mind that while Wiki is often correct it is not an authoritative source.

You might want to try the Zero offline or in the TA and see what it can and can't do.

[CAP1]

if you're trying to turn with a zeek, or any of those wiggley things, use hi and lo yoyo's.

[Saxman]

I understand your point but that is not a true statement about the Zero. My understanding is that the Zero had difficulty rolling to the right at high speeds but it was a problem of relative roll rates not an absolute inability to maneuver. Bear in mind that while Wiki is often correct it is not an authoritative source.

You might want to try the Zero offline or in the TA and see what it can and can't do.

There is a loss of control authority in the Zero above 350mph. Roll doesn't suffer too badly, although you will start losing elevator response. However you're not going to see a complete and total control lock until much higher speeds.

I'd really need to see what Noah was doing to get an idea of what he was trying vs. what was actually happening.

I have no trouble out-maneuvering Zeroes in a high-speed fight with a Corsair, but I'm not turning on a flat plane. A sustained turn is a sustained turn, whether 90 degrees on the horizon, or using a vertical component. You want that vertical.