High Speed Turning Ability

[boomerlu]

You might want to try the Zero offline or in the TA and see what it can and can't do.

QFT.

If you are intent on finding out the opposing plane's limitations, best to give it a test flight and push the plane to its limits. Also, don't believe everything you read on AHWiki. Use a critical mind to separate the chaff from the wheat.

This is an excellent article for the type of information you're looking for. You can find a lot of data on turn rates/radius. Search for Badboy's Bootstrap Calculator and Spatula's Performance Comparison. However, all this does not mention loss of control authority - you'll have to find that out for yourself.
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_011a.html

Personally, I don't know that much about the Pacific set except that all the Jap planes can tuuuurrrnn.

[Noah17]

Thanks for the link Boomerlu.

I'm glad that I decided to post my question when I did. I got in to a fight w/ an A6m5 this morning....I died but I did stick around for a long time.

The fight was just me and the zero. We were headed toward each other initially and apparently noticed each other around the same time from 5.0 out co-alt/speed as best I can guess. In this case there is no way I'm just going to drop in behind him he can point at me all day long.

The fight lasted at least 6-7 minutes. I made 7-8 passes at him but he was able to dance around my guns every time. The  only shot I would have would be a high angle shot as we approached each other. But he would turn and I couldn't pull the nose of the F4U-1A around fast enough to track him (my gunnery... ). I would get to around 600 away from him before his turn. I would pass him and extend just a little keeping my speed over 300MPH the entire time. I would then High or low Yo Yo to make my reverse but the zero had already turned and there we were going at each other again with me taking another high angle shot. Even though he turned around in a smaller area then I did I never got a sense that he was losing E.

It's safe to say that my opponent is a better pilot then me (Awaji), I've only been here 4-5 months. I could not get behind him when I Yo Yo'd. Maybe I needed to Yo Yo at the merge? I think we were co-alt/E maybe I should have zoomed on the initial merge and the zero would not have been able to follow me? I know the F4U is known for its zoom but not sure what the zero would do if it had the same speed and alt.

As most fights do this one ended when the first pilot made the mistake and it was me. I got my best angle when the zero broke for home (probably baiting me). He turned away after my last pass and when I Yo Yo'd I saw him level about 2.0 away ~ 45 degrees off tail. I went after him and as soon as I got to guns range he turned level in to me.... Like an idiot I reversed flat as if to scissor....Stupid. He was right on me. I dived for the deck but it was too late.

At least he threw me a salute after killing me

[Saxman]

Generally when I reverse on the merge, I go vertical immediately and pick up my opponent. That way if he tries to come around in a level turn I can just roll over and drop in on him. The most important thing is I locate his position IMMEDIATELY so I know how to respond.

As far as if you're on his six:

When he breaks you don't need to extend too far, unless your intent is to BnZ him to death. When you extend, make sure to extend vertically to recovere your energy and stay on the perch. You want to stay within 2000-3000yds, because if you get too far out you'll just give him time to regain his own E after evading. Staying closer puts the pressure on him, and you can work him down until he's out of E. Also, the more vertical separation than horizontal the better. If you come barreling in on him at co-alt, it's much easier for him to turn out of the way. However if you're dropping on him from above it's MUCH more difficult for him to turn in a direction where you can't follow, because all you need to do is roll and it puts you right on his heading. I'd put my money on the Corsair's roll rate vs. the Zero's turn radius any day of the week. Lastly, as you gain experience you'll learn WHERE to point your nose as you come back in. Ultimately you don't aim for where he IS, you want to set yourself up so as you come through you're where he's GOING to be. That's what gets you the shot and the kill.

As far as when to make your move on a break, I go vertical the INSTANT I recognize I can't track my target through the turn. This is the case when I'm fighting against ALL opponents: If I can't follow his break, I go up and roll over him. It's essentially a pursuit roll. The Zero has a tighter turning radius than the Corsair. To counter this, if you turn that extra in your turning circle into a maneuver through the vertical you can make a much tighter turn in the same horizontal space. Once you're familiar enough with the plane you can work this down until you can drop down right in the saddle every time.

The concept is the same regardless of the opponent. If you're in a turning fight against an opponent with an equal or even a bigger turning circle, you may not follow his break if you're going too fast or if you're at the wrong angle off tail. Just go UP and transfer that extra room into the vertical component. I use it when practicing against my squaddies all the time. It drives them nuts.

Also, against very tight-turning opponents like the Zero, Brewster and F4F/FM-2, you really better get practice at those high-deflection shots. Sometimes that will be the only chance you get. Fortunately the Zero doesn't tolerate damage well at all so even a snapshot should be enough to do the job.

[boomerlu]

Psychology is a big factor in air combat and how the fight turns out is in large part due to both the plane performance and pilot style.

One thing you might try is on your passes, if you notice a pattern as to which way he breaks, you can anticipate that and get a jump on the turn, perhaps giving you a guns solution.

Another bit is using yourself as bait to make your opponent burn his smash - the classic rope is a prime example of this.

As far as ACM, think about what you are doing. I try not to burn energy unless it allows me to gain or maintain a positional advantage. As a trivial example, you wouldn't randomly decide to turn hard or chop throttle if you were saddled up on a con's six 200 out.

As another example, I typically don't turn max Gs on merge as it usually will not yield any advantage (at best, I get a head to head). This again falls into the category of psychology as your best option is determined by your opponent's choice of maneuvers. If your opponent usually pulls max Gs on merge, your best bet is not to attempt to match him - the best you can hope for is a nose-to-nose, and at worst he's a better stall fighter than you and you get shot.

On the other hand, if a nose low slice will get me saddled up, of course I'll burn that E.

[Noah17]

I considered  the vertical maybe zooming but, I also know the zero is a good climber and wasn't really sure about who might zoom or, go vertical better. We were at the same altitude and similar speed so, I wasn't sure about who had the advantage. I just tried to keep him at a distance and hit him w/ the .50's unless I could get behind him. High deflection shots at zero's don't work too well.

If I went straight up and he went straight up canopy to canopy who's going to stall first or, who would pull in their stick and get the angle for a shot while we're both still going up?

Also I've not really tried a hard rudder reversal shortly after going vertical; well before I get to the top...Not sure how that would work.

[Saxman]

Equal e-states the Corsair should out-muscle the A6M in the zoom. Rate of climb is better than the A6M2, and more or less equal to the A6M5. However the Corsair has a considerable mass and horsepower advantage. Remember also that if you're going up canopy to canopy your opponent has to pull over the top to get a shot at you, so he's not going to have a good one (inverted shots can be tough to make, even if you're saddled up). If he tries to roll upright he's going to bleed more speed if he tries to follow.

Rudder in the F4U is EVERY BIT as important as flaps. There's very few situations where I DON'T use rudder on the inside of a roll, or especially in any sort of nose-high turn (yo-yo, pursuit roll, etc). She has one of the best rudders in the game, so you really want to take advantage of it.

[Noah17]

It seems that if I try to make a nose high turn or High Yo Yo that the F4U really wants to go in to a spin or, I get a LOT of buffeting, especially if I use rudder. Maybe my rudder pedals are a little too sensitive?

Also it doesn't seem like 250MPH or less is safe for any vertical maneuvers for the same reasons. I can loop and Yo Yo but it seems very slow and close to a stall near the top or if I pull up too much.
 

[Mace2004]

Ok, let's clarify things and answer the OP's original question. First off, the discussion of high speed turning capability can relate to very high speed issues such as compression (P38) or air loads (Zeke) but those speeds are well above corner velocity. The part of the Wiki that the OP mentions is talking about best turn performance which occurs at corner velocity.   Look at this chart, what does it say about high-speed turning for these two aircraft? (Sorry, don't have a similar chart for a Zeke and Hog).

First, notice the corner velocities for each aircraft. About 235mph for the Yak and 260mph for the Pony. Assuming both aircraft are at corner velocity the Yak's turn radius is about 620ft at 33deg/sec. The Pony's turn radius is about 750ft and only 29 deg/sec. SO, it's pretty obvious the Yak has the better turn performance at, or below, corner.

Also notice that these are the absolute best turn performance numbers that these aircraft can produce at the chart's specified altitude and aircraft configuration in symmetrical flight (i.e., no roll, just pitch). This is why corner velocity is the single most important number to know if you really want to max perform your aircraft. Typically, for WWII fighters, corner would be considered the aircraft's maximum instantaneous turn performance because none of our aircraft have sufficient power to sustain a level 6G turn because of the large drag created. We can; however, sustain a 6G turn for a short period of time provided the turn is nose-low (i.e., trading altitude for turn performance).  Also, the OP may have a misperception regarding corner.  In order to sustain corner speed in a level turn you cannot be pulling 6G, the airplane would otherwise slow down.  So, if you're easing off on the stick in order to sustain your speed you are not turning well since turning requires G. Think of it as corner velocity makes a maximum instantaneous 6G turn available to you but you'll either have to turn nose low to sustain it for more than a few seconds or accept that you're going to slow down.

Notice something else on this chart.  What happens above corner? Instantaneous turn performance is identical and this is because both aircraft are 6g limited.  The Yak has the edge in instantaneous turn performance because it can reach corner velocity at a lower speed while the Pony has a Laminar flow wing designed more for high speed and high altitude but if you follow the P_s=0 line, you see that the Pony actually has slightly better sustained turn performance at extreme high speed up to V_ne.  This is the region where other issues such as compression and aerodynamic loading can become critical as others have mentioned.

Also, the OP asked about the F4U's corner velocity, it's about 245mph (varies a bit according to which model you're talking about).

[Noah17]

Wow Mace,

That's a great description of how it works. Before this thread I was not aware of the fact that if 2 planes are same speed and, pulling 6 g's that for a brief time they would turn exactly the same......All of this is extremely informative.

Someone sent me a link from Badboy that has some spreadsheets in it. I think they help to find corner velocity for a number of the aircraft but, I haven't had time to fully investigate yet. It should be very interesting.

Thanks again
 

[Mace2004]

Someone sent me a link from Badboy that has some spreadsheets in it. I think they help to find corner velocity for a number of the aircraft but, I haven't had time to fully investigate yet. It should be very interesting.

Definitely study the info from Badboy. He, along with a few others have produced quite a bit of this kind of useful data that you should know if you want to get past simply "pulling on the stick" and trying to point at someone. You can see the chart I posted is one of his.

Also, wanted to add a couple of other notes. In my first post I was talking about how two airplanes compare when they're both at corner but this obviously isn't the complete story. While the Yak in this example can clearly out rate and radius the Pony if they're both at similar airspeeds below corner, what else can the chart tell us?  

Let's just say we're flying the Pony, how do we fight the Yak? Well, first we can dive away since we have a higher V_ne for horizontal separation.  This type of separation is good for the e-fighter and bad for the angles fighter.  More importantly, notice that the Pony can actually out rate the Yak IF we can get him below about 200mph while we can do our turning at corner.  This is the key for success and basis for lots of the comments about using the vertical that others have contributed.  

Clearly, the Pony would prefer to fight an energy fight by keeping sufficient pressure on the Yak (or baiting him) to get him to turn hard and bleed off E.  Also, the Pony never gets a smaller turn radius than the Yak until the Yak gets down to below about 120mph.  So, generally speaking, the Pony wants to force a two-circle fight (some call this nose-to-tail) where rate is more important that radius and use extension/pitchback tactics to maintain E and control separation while continuing to attack and force the Yak to bleed.  Also, the Pony would want to maintain good awareness of altitude and work to maintain or even gain altitude (i.e., store his E) while the Yak turns hard and tends to lose altitude overall.  Once the Pony has a clear E advantage, then we can start looking for opportunities to turn the fight into a pure vertical fight.  For pure vertical maneuvers (i.e., near 90deg straight nose up), 300mph is a decent speed to shoot for as this gives you sufficient speed to go pure vertical while maintaining maneuverability.  i.e., you don't want to just stick your nose straight up unless you have an advantage and can use the pure vertical effectively.  If you go pure vertical with too little E then you'll be close to stall and can have too little maneuverability to turn vertical separation into an effective vertical attack.

So, you can summarize this as sticking to a two-circle fight, maintain (or gain) E, store your E as altitude and use efficient turns (such as the high yo-yo).  A way this could play out once you have the Yak clearly at an E disadvantage, do an short extension/pitchback, come back in with your nose a bit low to get your 300mph and pull up through him in a pure vertical maneuver.  Since he is at an e disadvantage, he can't follow you up, if he does he's roped so reverse and kill him.  If he extends, roll to put your lift vector on him and go after his six for the kill.  

Let me add one more thing about zooms.  Do not make the mistake of believing that just because an aircraft has more horsepower (the F4U vs Zeke for instance) it is a better zoomer.  What matters is the thrust to weight ratio.  Yes, a Zeke has less HP than the Corsair BUT it's also tiny and light plus, even though the F4U does have some slow-speed tricks up its sleeve (great flaps and rudder) the Zeke is an exceptionally nice handling aircraft at very slow speeds. Don't count on "out-zooming" a Zeke unless you have a significant E advantage otherwise the Zeke will climb right up behind you and eat your lunch.

[WWhiskey]

You obviously never watched the highly accurate historical TV drama, BaBa Blacksheep.  In the opening credits it clearly showed a Corsair easily out turning and maneuvering the far less nimble Zeke.


ack-ack

well yea, but did you see pappies arms? he had some strength! just try to knock that battery off his shoulder! i dare you!

[dtango]

Wow Mace,

That's a great description of how it works. Before this thread I was not aware of the fact that if 2 planes are same speed and, pulling 6 g's that for a brief time they would turn exactly the same......All of this is extremely informative.

Keep in mind this is only true in AH where we all have the same 6 g limitation due to blackout.  In real life the lift limit at corner is bound by the g-limits of the aircraft structure.

Someone sent me a link from Badboy that has some spreadsheets in it. I think they help to find corner velocity for a number of the aircraft but, I haven't had time to fully investigate yet. It should be very interesting.

Badboy's cool spreadsheet will spit out the answer for you after you do some basic flight testing to fill out the "data-card" portion of the spreadsheet for a particular aircraft & configuration etc.

Everything that Mace says, pay very close to attention to .  Good stuff there, stuff that some people still struggle with.

I'll add a couple of thoughts to this thread in a bit here.

Tango
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[dtango]

Mace mentions it but I wanted to point it out more explicitly regarding sustained turns.  Here's another diagram from Badboy that's worth looking at to explain a few concepts:



As an editorial, I think learning how to read and understand energy-maneuverability charts should be required for all pilots in AH.  Badboy has an article on simhq that discusses how to read and understand them:
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_011a.html

Here we have an EM chart that Badboy has annotated.  Sparing the explanations that can be found in Badboy's article we want to pay particular attention to the Ps=0 curves on this chart which is germaine to this thread.  Turns made with turn performance above this line means the aircraft is losing energy.  Turns below this line means an aircraft is gaining energy either in airspeed, altitude or both.  Turns made at Ps=0 is where the total drag of the airplane including induced drag penalty of a turn equals the thrust output of the propulsion system.  Energy gain or loss is exactly zero which means an airplane could SUSTAIN that turn indefinitely.

What's meant by saying some planes turn better than others at high speed?  Looking at this EM chart we can divine some of the mystery of statements like that.  If we compare the sustained turn performance of the Hurri, Spit I, and 109E by looking at their Ps=0 curves we find a couple of curious things going on.  Notice between the Hurri and the 109E that the Hurri I has a better sustained turn performance than the 109E from 75mph to about 220mph.  Above 220mph however the 109E has a better sustained turn performance compared to the Hurri I.  The similar relationship holds true between the Hurri and the Spit I.

What's going on?  Simply put though the Hurri I has a better sustained turn capability compared to the Spit I and Bf-109E-4 at lower speeds, but at some point at higher speeds the drag penalty of the Hurri becomes a factor allowing the Spit I and Bf-109E-4 to have better sustained turn performance which leads to the statements expressed on Wikipedia.

We have to be careful with these statements though.  For the Savvy Hurri driver, because they know this differential in performance why on earth would they ever try and turn fight with a Spit I or 109E at higher speeds?  The Hurri (or the Zeke driver for that matter) has the luxury to simply slow their plane down by any means (hard turning, reducing throttle, climbing etc.) to change the turn performance margin heavily in their favor regardless of whatever speed the Spit or 109 remains at.  It absolutely makes no sense for the Hurri driver in this case to try and compete in a turning fight at the greater airspeeds that degrade it's turn performance relative to it's enemies.  Infact due to the simple nature of hard turning above Ps=0 that usually occurs, a fight naturally progresses to slower and slower airspeeds which naturally gives advantage to the better angles fighter in a pure turning showdown, in this case the Hurri.  Anyway, IMHO too much is made of this idea that some planes have better high speed turn performance than others because in cases like this that gap in capability is pretty easily negated.

Tango
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[boomerlu]

Great posts by all, I agree with pretty much all of it. I was just a bit too lazy to type out so much myself .

Judging the opponent's E state is something that will have to come with experience. That is how you will know if you can zoom on the Zero or not, for example. Climb rate advantage is VERY overrated in a steep zoom climb. Available energy is far more important. If you want to make use of a climb rate advantage, it's going to take you 1-2 minutes or more of shallow climbing. Never count on your climb rate in a steep zoom.

This is a great tutorial on a great move, one I've used a lot as a 109 stick.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FEo4wAlLjQ

As for how to finish the fight when you've built the E advantage:

Mace mentioned a zoom/rope which should be effective. As for me, I like to cruise a bit above my opponent, near corner velocity, and wait to see an opening. When I see it, I'll nose low slice with all I've got, pulling 6gs at corner all the way until I saddle up. From there, it's a few turns and a few bursts to victory.

Usually you cannot maintain cornering ability for any period of time because as you bleed speed in the turn, you drop below best instantenous turn. However, if you convert altitude into airpseed in this turn (as in a nose low slice), you can convert your available energy into a very tight sustained corner velocity turn. Not to mention you'll get a turn rate assist because of gravity.

In my mind, such a maneuver is extremely aggressive and risky. As such I only use it when I'm reasonably sure I can saddle up.

Note, this is what many people call "converting energy into angles". Practically ALL energy pilots will do this to finish the fight. It need not be a nose low slice necessarily. You could do this in a rope for example - you're using your available energy to convert from being defensive or neutral to being offensive. Or you could be building up an energy advantage through a flat turn then converting it to angles in the same flat turn by simply pulling harder.

Key point is: building up energy means building up potential advantage. However, you must USE it by converting to angles/position to finish the fight.

In my mind, E fighting is just smart flying: don't burn energy when it won't gain you anything, burn it when you stand to get a kill shot.

[tokenjo]

I believe  stated that IT rate was achieved when
the stall horn was sounding and you just start to blackout.

Check out www.simhq.com > aviation & air combat corner

tokenjo