Lose sight; lose fight

[Max]

This is somewhat embarrassing but after 8 years, I often lose sight of my opponent...usually when they're behind me, low or high. I always use the F9 instant view mode. The 8 standard views are set to my joystick with a pinkie button LOOK UP modifier. Apart from 12:00 hat switch toggle (look fwd up) all other 7 are standard views...look front right, look right, look back right, etc.

Any tips for improving SA?

Thanks 

[FLS]

Keeping sight and SA are two different things.

After 8 years I hope you have your head position adjusted for max visibility. If not then download Murde's head position files from the trainers page to give you a starting point. http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/

Go to the training arena and find someone to turn with, practice keeping them in view while avoiding the ground. If you were new I'd suggest starting by keeping an object like the radar tower in view while looping and turning around it.

[Twizzty]

Max, this is the reason I don't use F9 instant view. With F11 (snap I think) views I often just see a red blur when looking around and then I know about where the bad guy is.

[Patches1]

This is going to sound dumb, but practice flying inverted using your views. The Training Arena is a great place to practice. Try looping
through a hangar several times without losing sight of the hangar at any time during your loop, and when you feel comfortable with that, and then try flying inverted through a hangar.

The idea here is to keep sight of your opponent (the hangar) whilst learning how your controls and views work while inverted. Since the hangar is stationary you must anticipate and make the move to roll inverted and then roll again once through the hangar to keep it in sight as you egress and climb in your loop.

This exercise will help you learn views, normal and inverted, and control of aircraft speed using throttle and flaps, whilst flying normal and inverted, and not losing sight of your target whilst flying normal or inverted.

Just some thoughts....

<S>

[Anaxogoras]

Max, this is the reason I don't use F9 instant view. With F11 (snap I think) views I often just see a red blur when looking around and then I know about where the bad guy is.

+1, try snap views instead.  The two main things that cause me to lose sight of an enemy airplane are canopy bracings, e.g. Bf 109, and when they're positioned somewhere below my aircraft.

[mtnman]

A few more things you can work on-

One, most people seem to watch where they're flying, and take "quick peeks" to keep an eye on their opponent.  Reverse that.  Try to keep an eye on your opponent all the time, and just take quick peeks forward to see where you're going.  Try to learn to fly without needing to look at the gauges too often, or spend too much time looking forward.

Once you've lost track of your opponent, it takes too long to regain his location, and you're losing ground for every fraction of a second that you waste looking for him.  Lose track of the ground, and it's fairly easy to figure out exactly where it is again...

Two, go try the offline drone thing again, or better yet, the guys in the TA.  You don't even need to fight/fire, just practice maneuvering all around them, never losing track of where they are, what they're doing, and what they seem capable of doing.

Personally, I like the F7 "Pan Mode", it makes it easier for me to keep an eye on things. 

Three, start making an effort to base your timing and maneuvers, on what you see, rather than what you think is appropriate.  An example is a basic scissors.  If you're not watching the bad guy the whole time, you're not timing the scissors correctly.

You can take your eyes off your opponent briefly, and you'll need to, because he'll pass through bona fide blind spots.  That's ok, proper, forgivable, as long as you know exactly where he entered that blind spot, what he's capable of doing while in that blind spot, where he'll exit that blind spot, and when he'll exit that blind spot (so if he doesn't come out when he should, you'll have a good idea of why, and what that means to you RIGHT NOW).

[boomerlu]

One, most people seem to watch where they're flying, and take "quick peeks" to keep an eye on their opponent.  Reverse that.  Try to keep an eye on your opponent all the time, and just take quick peeks forward to see where you're going.  Try to learn to fly without needing to look at the gauges too often, or spend too much time looking forward.

I never realized most people watch where they're flying first and track their opponent second. I've always flown by tracking my opponent and taking quick glances forward if I need to (ie, if I'm too close to the ground).

Seems like the most natural thing to me - you can't determine the best course of action without knowing what your opponent is doing. Effective spatial reasoning while tracking your opponent seems like one of the basic skills for good ACM.

[Ghosth]

F7 should give you snap views, to me they are smoother than the instant. Easier to keep tracking someone.

And yes, head out of the cockpit, eyes on the enemy, fly to where your looking, don't look at where your flying. The visual cues are there for avoiding ground with some practice.

[Messiah]

I also use F9 instant view. I feel the F7 snap is often disorienting and in some cases too slow. Practice makes perfect, I rarely loose sight in a 1v1 anymore, but I would probably guess all my experience is from flying into hordes of red (ultimate SA test).

Another thing I do which I find very effective is to make a mental image or overview in your head of the enemy plane(s) relation to you. This way you can make accurate logical assumptions of where the enemy will be at any given time and begin to even predict his movement. Practice and experience also makes this type of technique more accurate overtime.

[SPKmes]

I find that I sometimes lose sight of my con/s. In some craft it is just not possible to have full vis 100% of the time especially with mutiples..I use my sound as much as my views so for me I need to have  a good surround sound.

I also, at times go without sound... this helps me be more aware of my surroundings overall. (just let people know or they may think you are being rude)

[mtnman]

I never realized most people watch where they're flying first and track their opponent second. I've always flown by tracking my opponent and taking quick glances forward if I need to (ie, if I'm too close to the ground).

Seems like the most natural thing to me - you can't determine the best course of action without knowing what your opponent is doing. Effective spatial reasoning while tracking your opponent seems like one of the basic skills for good ACM.

Notice the word between "most people" and "to watch"?  

At least that's the sense I get when I work with people, and even from watching a lot of films.  Many times, watching films, I can't understand why they're not watching their opponent much more closely...  It drives me nuts, because I know if it was me I'd be using my views quite a bit differently than the recorded views are showing.  I'm thinking to myself "Look up left! Quick! You're gonna get kilt!"

The description I've often heard (and agree with) is "spending too much time in the cockpit".

In person, working with a "student" I can't begin to tell you how often I hear "I completely lost you after the merge".  Or, when I ask them "OK, did you see what you just allowed me to do?" or "Do you see how that maneuver you just did allows me to do this or that?" I get the response "Uh, no, I wasn't looking at you"...

People not paying close enough attention is a huge obstacle I run into.  Even to the point of players with several years of experience who haven't ever developed an effective method of managing views...

When you stop to think that poor SA starts with not watching things closely enough, and then see all the complaints which develop from poor SA, such as "No way did your F4U chase my P51 down!  How can your F4U catch my P51, or Tempest, etc" or "How did you just shoot me in the rope?  You had no E", or "Picker!" it's pretty apparent that people aren't fully capitalizing on what the computer screen will tell them, if they just looked around...

[SlapShot]

I also use F9 instant view. I feel the F7 snap is often disorienting and in some cases too slow. Practice makes perfect, I rarely loose sight in a 1v1 anymore, but I would probably guess all my experience is from flying into hordes of red (ultimate SA test).

Another thing I do which I find very effective is to make a mental image or overview in your head of the enemy plane(s) relation to you. This way you can make accurate logical assumptions of where the enemy will be at any given time and begin to even predict his movement. Practice and experience also makes this type of technique more accurate overtime.

Excellent post ... the mental image is tantamount ... more so than the type of "view" you use. I am always watching the wings and the overall planes attitude as it passed by and with that, I can pretty accurately determine where they will be and switch to that view as I lose sight from my current view.

I use the snap view ... the instant view just boggles my mind's eye and confuses me more than it helps. It's very much like using tracers or not ... it's a personal thing. After 7+ years, I still always use tracers. I have tried to shut them off, and when I do ... my gunnery goes down the tubes ... not that it's that good anyways ... I need all the help I can get.

[boomerlu]

Notice the word between "most people" and "to watch"?

True, none of us can really know what other people are doing without recorded views and/or sitting next to them looking at the screen. Still, it surprises me, and that was the point of my post.

People not paying close enough attention is a huge obstacle I run into.  Even to the point of players with several years of experience who haven't ever developed an effective method of managing views...

Right, you are the trainer, you help tons of people and get an idea of what some common failings are.

As a pilot without the benefit of seeing other people fly, I simply assumed that everybody else managed their views the approximately same way I did because it was by far the most logical way to fight. I never even considered the alternative - "spending too much time in the cockpit." Hence my surprise; the primary reason for my post.

[mtnman]

There are actually several different ways people manage the views in game.

There are some people who use/program the forward position on the HAT switch differently (some use it for "Look Up Front", some use it to see down the side of their nose), and some use different options for the "up" views (some us an "UP" button, while some use different "Mode" switches), and some use TrackIR. 

Then, some people use the mouse for views, some use HAT switches, and some use the keypad.  I've even heard of some people using controllers from different games...

Then, some either don't know to custom adjust each view using the arrow keys, Page Up/Down, and F10, or maybe they don't realize the value right away?

Some have great intentions, map everything properly, and adjust the views properly, but don't have the buttons on their controls mapped "efficiently" so that they can multitask without losing sight.  Some have everything set up great, but still either fail to watch closely, or are unable to for various reasons.

It can be argued pretty effectively that SA is vital to being a successful pilot, and having a good system for visually tracking your opponent is a huge part of SA.

[flatiron1]

I can't see a difference between instant and snap view. Am I not set up properly?