So, do you guys think a Fw190-D9 would be a perk or not?

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by mauser:
Isn't the perk system there to allow planes that could unbalance the arena enter the arena at a limited rate? Since the Dora is contemporary to the p51D, 109G10 it shouldn't be perked.  I don't think people would all flock to flying the Dora since there are planes with better characteristics (e.g. better/more cannons, higher speed, better turn, ground attack loadout, etc.). The way the arena looks now, I don't think the SpitXIV should be perked either. If it still has the same 2x20mm and 2x12.7mm with it's limited clip, it will probably be used by dedicated Spit lovers (and some converts). Reason being the tiff is still fast on the deck and has more cannon + ammunition. And the IX will still turn better (right?). As for the Tempest, isn't it a "fixed" Tiffie? i.e. better high alt-performance, faster at all alts, better and more cannon, and better wing? (correct me if I'm wrong.. haven't read about Tempest in a long time).

mauser

Mauser, the problem with the Spit XIV is that it is as fast as a P51 and a bit slower than Fw190D9...but it is maneouverable as hell and a great E-fighter by any means. Accelerates like a bastard with a rocket in his prettythang ( ), runs like a runstang, climbs way better than a Yak9, and turns like a Spit9.

The P51 is fast as hell...but at least it can't turn too much and accelerates very slow.

The 109G10 is fast and accelerates like a rocket...but its hispeed maneouverability, and its turnrate are toejamty.

The Fw190D9 will be FAST!! but...apart of being fast and a great roller it wont be able to turn, will bleed E worse than a 190A8 and will turn worse too.

The Spit XIV will do everything good. I am all for it in the MA but it will be the most used plane, more even that the blue cannon devil. If its not perked at the first, it will be later. Its simply too good an arena plane.

[Karnak]

I HATE doing this, it feels like shooting myself in the foot, but...

RAM is right about the Spitfire MkXIV (except its speed, his description is accurate at sea level, but up higher its faster than the P-51D by 11mph and faster than the Fw190D-9 by even more).  Its just too good of an aircraft for the MA.  If it is not perked.  Mating a two stage Griffon 65 engine to a strengthened, refined Spitfire airframe produced what is arguably one of the best air-to-air weapons of WWII.

Fw190D-9 with MW50 = Non-Perk  

Spitfire F.MkXIV = Perk  

IMHO  

I'm going to go curl up into a fetal position and blubber now....

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Sisu
-Karnak

[Wmaker]

 

Originally posted by RAM:
No. You stand behind your statement and SOURCE
The day you bring another source here saying that the G10/R5 had wing gondolas I will stop laughing. (But I still will not believe it...note I have said FOUR (4) SOURCES of information on the R6-R5-U4 matter.

You only one. So yours is the books of the All-Mighty-And-Knowing-Gods, huh?

As I said before I indeed have two sources:

Prien & Rodeike states those arguments and
"MESSERSCHMITT BF 109 JA SAKSAN SOTATALOUS" (isbn#951-95688-7-5) by Hannu Valtonen confirms them, so you can stop laughing now. Hannu Valtonen is one of the leading aviation historians/argeologists in Finland and done tons of research and he has my trust when specifically states that Prien & Rodeike's list is more correct than Jean-Claude Merret's.
     Well anyways...I have another way to prove you wrong about R6 being the designation for gondola-mounted cannons in G-10s. Gondola-mounted cannons were a field conversion kit for all 109 variants which had it...we both agree on this, right? For example, Valtonen's book has werkenummer-list of all the production G6s built and there isn't a single mention about G-6/R6 in that list (I can post the list if you refuse to believe me). This is obvious because those cannons were installed on the field, not in the factory, and this is factory list I'm talking about. Here is the werkenummer-list of the G-10s which were finished before the war ended:

Mtt GmbH  WNr. 130100-130700    123 G-10
Erla      WNr. 150500-151088 c. 350 G-10/R6
Erla      WNr. 151498-151634 c.  80 G-10/R6
Erla      WNr. 151825-151999 c. 100 G-10/R6
Erla      WNr. 490130-490399 c. 270 G-10
Erla      WNr. 490400-490799*c. 350 G-10/R6
Erla      WNr. 491100-491500'c. 370 G-10/R6
WNF       WNr. 610300-611099 c. 370 G-10/U4
WNF       WNr. 611900-612010 c.  70 G-10/U4
WNF       WNr. 612700-613199 c. 210 G-10/U4
WNF       WNr. 770100-770399 c. 200 G-10/R2
WNF       WNr. 770900-771199 c. 100 G-10/R2

*Probably only 490231, -239, 241 and 244 were G-10/R6s.
'There could have been Bf 109G6/AS-machines in first werkenummer.

So R6 was installed in the factory, gondola-mounted cannons weren't, they were installed in the field.

R6 designation means plane was equipped with PKS 12 single-axis autopilot. You can't just "plug-in" something like this in the field conditions...SO it was installed in the factory and that is why it shows in the werkenummer list.

And RAM, do you honestly believe that about 650 G-10s out of about 2600 planes had gondola-mounted MK 108s? I'm telling you they never came into operational use and U4 designation means that engine-mounted MG 151/20 is replaced with MK 108...no wing cannons.

1Wmaker1
Lentolaivue 34


[This message has been edited by Wmaker (edited 02-01-2001).]

[Torgo]

One thing to keep in mind....

For borderline AC like the Dora, perhaps it would be ideal to try it non-perked and see what happens.

However; here's the problem..it's infinately more controversial to add a plane unperked and perk it later, than to simply add it perked first.

If there was no F4U-1C, and tomorrow Pyro said "we're gonna add a Corsair with 4 20mm cannons, and make it a cheap perk, in 1.06" I think there would be widespread and universal happiness and appreciation.

But now, IF it's ever perked, it will set up the s***storm of all s***storms.

[J_A_B]

I can't imagine why they would perk the D-9

Both WB's and AW had it freely available, and it did not unbalance the game.   Indeed, the greatest impact it had was as a "replacement runstang"--the runner dweebs (and a few good pilots, too) all flew the D-9 instead of the P-51.  

In either game I still felt the P-51 was a slightly better airplane.  It surprises me that the D-9 may be perked in AH.

I CAN understand why the Spit 14 would be perked....it would utterly dominate the arnea if modeled properly.  I can understand the Tempest too--even faster than the D-9 and much better weapons and E retention.  

I CANNOT understand why some people think the Spit 9 is "outclassed"--because it isn't.  It turns well, climbs well, is easy to fly, has good weapons, and accelerates well.  As a plane it's much better than the F6F or C.205 IMO.  Because the SPit 9 isn't incredibly fast means it is BALANCED well for arena play, rather than dominating like the Spit 14 would be.

Bottom line--no need to perk a FW-190D-9.


J_A_B

[RAM]

Wmaker...see...this is my last word in this thing.

You prove again that you are wrong, or at least you do assumptions in a wrong way.

The list you present has only ONE U-modification...and many R. R2, R6...

Rustsätze modificatious could be fitted in the field. But also from factory!. LOL if you can put a couple of wing gondolas on a 109G10 in the field why are not going to do in the factory?

Then why didnt they call all those Rustsatze you mention in that list as U-X??? because as they were done in factory...

4-2, I still have presented more sources. R6 was the wing gondola cannon G10 (As was the G6. as was the G5. as was the G2,as was the G1...etc etc etc)

Have a nice day.

[Wmaker]

During G-10 production Erla had other things to worry about than installing gondola-mounted MG 151/20 cannons on 530 production aircraft...a job that could easily be done on the field!!! When you claim that R6 was the rustsätze designation for G-10 you are also claiming that about 530 G-10s rolled off the production line MG 151/20 gondola-cannons allready installed...plus installations which were done on the field...AND that about 650 came from the factory MK 108 gondola-cannons allready installed...LOL...RAM give me a break!!! Just to remind you it is generally stated that gondola-mounted cannons were rarely seen in G-10s anyway  . And what I find very interesting is that you obviously don't seem to believe in the list I presented. It comes from a first hand source: Messerschmitt's delivery plan-documents.
   
     I have hard time believing your naive approach on this source-issue:"You have only two books, I have as much as four, so of course I'm right!!!" First of all I don't consider "Warplanes of the Luftwaffe" or "The Great Book of WWII Airplanes" as sources of information at all on this matter. If a book says K-4 was equipped with pair of MG 151/15 on cowling and MK 103 cannon firing through the spinner it sure as hell makes me wonder are the rest of the statements conserning that particular aircraft correct, obviously it isn't so in your case  . Books I use, quote first hand sources; the orginal documents from factory and RLM records. Your "sources" quote other books. See the difference?? I don't care if you try backing up your statements by quoting 100 different books using old information. Of course you can find more of them because Prien & Rodeike published their work as late as in 1992!!!
Even I can write 50 books saying: "Bf 109G-10/R-6 had 6 forward firing  MK 108 30 mm cannons and two MK 103 cannons in the upper turret"...still wont make it right, you know  .

1Wmaker1
Lentolaivue 34  

[Nath-BDP]

Ruestsaetze = field conversion.

Umruest-Baustsaezte = factory conversion.

[SFRT - Frenchy]

Don't perk the D9, don't perk the P47M either then  

(will not fly the D9, but sure is a beautifull aircraft, the anti-P47 shapewise)

[niklas]

 

Originally posted by J_A_B:
I can't imagine why they would perk the D-9

Both WB's and AW had it freely available, and it did not unbalance the game.

it did not unbalance the game because it wasn´t modelled with mw50. Compared to allied fighter german fighter never had the best engines. I.e Warbirds, the 109K and the Fw190-D had both only 1800hp engines, while the real 605DCM produced 2000Hp and
the jumo213A with mw50 2100hp.

niklas

[leonid]

Shouldn't be perked.

[SageFIN]

 

Originally posted by niklas:
I.e Warbirds, the 109K and the Fw190-D had both only 1800hp engines, while the real 605DCM produced 2000Hp and
the jumo213A with mw50 2100hp.

Are you sure about that? And if so, then what engines were they modelled after in the WB or was that 1800 hp just some arbitrary number? And how did you get by it anyway?  

------------------
---
SageFIN

"I think I´ll believe in Gosh instead of God.  If you don´t
 believe in Gosh too, you´ll be darned to heck."
---

[J_A_B]

I don't know about WarBirds, but in AW it WAS modeled with MW50 (for some reason this was changed recently).

It performed as an MW50 D-9 should--faster than P-51 and better climb at lower altitudes.

It did not unbalance the game.  The only real effect it had was to change the plane that "runner dweebs" flew.  Instead of "Runstangs" we had "Dorka Dweebs".  

Recently in AW the MW50 modeling was removed from the D-9, and it isn't very competative now, except up high.  The non-MW50 D-9 is a match for the P-47, but not much else.

Certainly the D-9 isn't "perk" material.  I wouldn't even call it a vast improvement over earlier FW's--it never was as popular as the A-4 or A-8, except among runners.  It couldn't roll quite as well, didn't handle as well and had less firepower.  It was at a noticable disadvantage against bombers.  The ONLY things it had that the other FW's didn't was speed and high-alt performance.

I don't know whether HTC will perk the D-9, but I DO know this:

As a P-51 pilot, I had no fear of the Dora.


As I stated above, the Fw-190D-9 is not perk material.  It would fit the current AH non-perk planeset quite well.


J_A_B

NOTE:   I suspect RAM might not like this bird, as he currently seems to like the A-5 for its handling.  The D-9 handles even worse than the A-8 does.   As a plus though, it looks a lot meaner    

[funked]

Niklas, WB Fw 190D-9 speed matched the RLM MW 50 figures quite accurately.  And your point about the WB hp is cute, but if you look at the hacked FM specs you are referring to, almost all the other planes had reduced hp as well.

[danish]

Wasnt there some arguing that the WB Dora became (too) heavy after an initial uber period.

danish

PS: and no, Dora should not be perked.Neither should the Spit XIV.But give the monsters some torque.