Perk The Dora Campaign!!!

[funked]

It's not a troll.  I'm serious.  Although I think maybe your analytical ability is OK, but you're not aware of all the facts.  Here are some facts you don't seem to be aware of:

1.  Fw 190D-9 with MW 50 does 440 mph @ 18,700 feet, and 380 mph at sea level.  This is from RLM documents obtained by Vermillion.  I'm sure he can post them again if you are in doubt.  Pyro and HT have this data too - WB D-9 performs exactly to these figures.  Spitfire XIV on the other hand does less than 420 mph at 18,700 feet and only 363 mph at sea level.  The 446 mph figure was obtained at 25,700 feet.  I get my Spitfire performance data here:  http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spittest.html

So it is quite obvious that the D-9 will have a decisive (15 to 25 mph) speed advantage over the Spit XIV at common arena fighting altitudes (under 20,000 feet).  Only above 20,000 feet will the Spit have a slight speed advantage.

2.  The AFDU report only says the turning circle (radius) is identical to the Spit IX.  It says nothing about turn rate.  The plane is 1000 lb heavier than a Spit IX but with the same wing.  I assure you the AH Spit XIV will turn worse than the AH Spit IX.

The difference between D-9 and Spit XIV will be a lot like the difference between A-5 and Spit IX.  The Spit turns better and climbs better, but the 190 has superior speed and high-speed maneuverability.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-19-2000).]

[Nath-BDP]

lol funked look at the engine they tested that spit xiv with... a griffon 61, most XIVs were powered by the Griffon 65 except for VERY EARLY models, thats like comparing a Juma 213A and an -EB

XIV with Griffon 65 will be superior to D9 in speed, climb, turn... and btw I never heard of a D9 going 440 mph anywhere.

[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 08-19-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 08-19-2000).]

[RAM]

What Nath11 said.

Plus, funked, SpitXIV mayb he heavier than IX. But that doesnt means it doesnt turn well. Spitfire IX is now the better turner in this game (apart of the V and the C202). If you see the difference between SpitV and SpitIX's turnrates you'll see that the turn lose is not that great.

you dont tell me anything about climbrates and accelerations. To compare a D9-SpitXIV like a A5-SpitIX is incorrect. A5 has comparable initial climbrate but it lags behind over 8K. Acceration suffers the same.

SpitXIV will climb better than D9 at all altitudes, so will accelerate the same.

Sorry, I dont see how is comparable a 190D9 with a SpitXIV

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by funked:

1.  Fw 190D-9 with MW 50 does 440 mph @ 18,700 feet, and 380 mph at sea level.  This is from RLM documents obtained by Vermillion.  I'm sure he can post them again if you are in doubt.  Pyro and HT have this data too - WB D-9 performs exactly to these figures.  Spitfire XIV on the other hand does less than 420 mph at 18,700 feet and only 363 mph at sea level.  The 446 mph figure was obtained at 25,700 feet.  I get my Spitfire performance data here:  

When I refer to D9 I refer to Non-MW50. if MW50 D9 is modelled instead of a standard one, then I agree on non perking Spitfire XIV, while I still think that it is a superior plane than 190D9.

[funked]

OK RAM, I understand you better now.

I think you can be sure that the Dora will have MW 50.  

[jihad]

Sorry, I dont see how is comparable a 190D9 with a SpitXIV

 Comparable isnt pertinent,how can you expect HTC to model the premier LW fighter of WW2 and not its RAF counterpart?

 If anything the RAF dweebs should get the SpitXIV before the LW weenies get the D9.

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by jihad:

 Comparable isnt pertinent,how can you expect HTC to model the premier LW fighter of WW2 and not its RAF counterpart?
.

Because I dont expect, either, to see the premier LW jet plane of WWII, 1500 built, of which 750 or so saw service.

they saw extensive service, didnt they?.

[Jekyll]

 

2. The AFDU report only says the turning circle (radius) is identical to the Spit IX. It says nothing about turn rate. The plane is 1000 lb heavier than a Spit IX but with the same wing. I assure you the AH Spit XIV will turn worse than the AH Spit IX.

Hmm.. interesting.  An 8,500lb plane with 2050hp at its disposal will somehow have the same turn radius, but slower turn rate than a 7,500lb plane with only 1720hp at its disposal.

How the heck will the extra 300hp/1000lb make the Spit XIV SLOWER around its turn radius than the Spit IX?

Powerloading Spit IX  4.36lb/hp
Powerloading Spit XIV 4.14lb/hp

I'd love to see the answer to this one!  

------------------
C.O. Phoenix Squadron
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/phoenix
Aces High Training Corps

[Zigrat]

The reports that say the spit XIV turn as well as spit IX are bull. Simple physics tell you it is a propoganda backed lie. I want the spit XIV in AH, non perked as I want the dora. When both are modelled correctly, it will be a very good, fun, and interesting matchup.

[Karnak]

Spitfire XIV will turn a faster, wider circle than the Spitfire MkIX, but not by a lot in either case.  Pilot reports from WWII support this.

Now, as this subject has been completely hijacked from its original (joke  ) purpose, I suggest that we all let it die.

Doh!!!!  I kept it going.  

Sisu
-Karnak

[funked]

Jekyll, assuming the 14 is going around the same circle at the same speed as the 9, the extra mass is going to require a lot more lift, which causes more induced drag.

For a good view of what 1000 lb and a few hundred hp does to turning performance in AH, look at Me 109G-10 vs. Me 109G-2.

[GRUNHERZ]

HI

A Dora will do 453MPH on MW-50. As for the MkXIV it did begin to suffer from some of the same problems that late 109s encounterd.
It was heavier than the IX and had much more torque due to its great big engine and great big propeller. So it didnt turn as well as a IX. Im not bashing it in any way its a great plane and I love it but those big performance numbers did have an affect on handling. I also recall reading that it was not especially friendly on take-off.  

thanks GRUNHERZ

[jmccaul]

Loaded wingloading
Spit IX  : 30.2 lbs/ft^2
Spit VII : 32 lbs/ft^2
Spit XIV : 34.7 lbs/ft^2

Ok in a simple model it's obvious which plane will turn best and which will turn worse.

The real world is not simple simulations are not infallible. Often science is a process of experimenting then reasoning why the results are as they are. (Rutherford didn't expect those alpha particles to bounce back but when they did he found out why instead of saying impossible)

Here are the real world observed results :-

"Spitfire XIV is more manoeuvrable than the Spitfire VIII in turns at all heights"

how can this be interpreted other than a XIV (34.7 lbs/ft^2) outurns a VII (32 lbs/ft^2).

"The turning circles of both aircraft are identical. The Spitfire Mk XIV appears to turn slightly better to port than it does to starbord."

Slightly more ambiguous but still it's not what wingloadings would suggest.

One thing to note is the VII while has an improvement in powerloading  but not significantly greater weight (7400 v 7700) it turns worse. The XIV however has a large increase of weight (and also powerloading) but as well there is a change prop with 5 blades so it would seem this is a large factor (also new tail section).

 If HTC do model the XIV i doubt it will turn like a 9 due to the fact you probably need some sort complicated fluid modelling (i.e how air flows around the plane)

P.S.  there is probably some misconceptions in here so feel free to correct me  

P.P.S - isn't giving the D9 MW 50 like giving the 14 150 octane fuel J/K    

[Vermillion]

 

Both the 152 and 47M only saw service in the last 2 maybe 3 months of the war in numbers that barely break the teens.

Grunherz, some information for you.

There were 48 production Ta-152's, probably half of which that actuall saw combat. The others were mostly destroyed on the ground in strafing attacks, or were lost in accidents.

There were 150 P-47M's which were operated by the US 56th Fighter Group, and saw extensive combat in the ETO from mid 1944 on.

In addition there were 1,500 P-47N's produced (the model that came after the M, and could perform similarly but cared more total fuel) that saw combat in the PTO. In fact there were as many P-47N's, as there were Fw190D9's and Me109K4's put together.

So while I agree with you on the Ta-152s, I have to disagree with you on the P47M/N.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[GRUNHERZ]

HI

No No No The 56th first got them deliverd in January 1945, not in mid 44.

thanks GRUNHERZ