Author Topic: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests  (Read 29206 times)

Offline Stoney

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2009, 10:53:02 AM »
none of this will translate to AH anyway other incorrect modeling factors will prevent the proper envelopes from ever showing themselves in the game. 

GL gaston, but there is no interest in this sort of argument in here. 

the game is balanced the way they want it to be balanced.

+S+

t



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"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

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Offline thorsim

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2009, 11:06:28 AM »
well hey lets have this discussion then, what are the turn rates and radius for the set best of both and don't forget the "flaps" on those planes blessed with them ...

include anything else you feel is pertinent as you see fit.


Ah yes--taking the proverbial ball and going home...
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 12:26:31 PM by thorsim »
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2009, 12:10:48 PM »
Thorsim,

He is describing things that are impossible.  You can't have the Fw190A out turning the Spitfire Mk V, but being out turned by the Spitfire Mk IX.  Physics doesn't work that way.
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Offline thorsim

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2009, 12:24:15 PM »
right ...

so is there a problem with seeing the in-game turn performance, one that shows the best rate and best radius for the set, that way we can compare things. 

as far as what is impossible/possible that has never been very clear in these games has it?

THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
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Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline Karnak

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2009, 12:50:04 PM »
right ...

so is there a problem with seeing the in-game turn performance, one that shows the best rate and best radius for the set, that way we can compare things. 

as far as what is impossible/possible that has never been very clear in these games has it?


There are tools out there that people have made showing turn radius, others have posted turn rate data.  What is possible or impossible in these games is just as clear as in the real things.  The same flight tests work in both.
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Offline Stoney

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2009, 01:51:38 PM »

include anything else you feel is pertinent as you see fit.


First, your main issue is that you came onto this board with a huge chip on your shoulder, and then are mad that no one else agrees with you, or backs you up.  So, I don't think I could add anything pertinent, or at least what you would consider pertinent.

To perform an actual, detailed analysis of the aircraft in question, and their respective performance differences for us would be a huge undertaking.  I've got a book of aerodynamic equations that would allow me to do it, if I had access to some data that I don't, and it would probably take me hours upon hours of personal time to do so, for each aircraft.  I've seen enough of HTC's methodology to know that their approximate performance modelling is pretty close to accurate, in that they consider almost all of the major aerodynamic forces that act upon a plane.  So, armed with that trust in their methods, I simply push the "I believe" button when there are things that I don't know or question, but don't have or don't make time to determine for myself, using those aforementioned aerodynamic equations.  So, if you really want to start comparing apples to apples, come in here with your power available/power required curves, propellor efficiency numbers, thrust approximations, et al instead of simply waving an anecdotal pilot report or a single chart that has undertermined origins.

You may be right, after all.  But most of us will remain skeptical until you can produce something tactile that we can wrap our minds around.  Being right doesn't matter at all if you can't convince people you are.  For me personally, I'm tired of your BBS Sniper tactics in these threads...
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

HiTech

Offline thorsim

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2009, 03:26:13 PM »
First, your main issue is that you came onto this board with a huge chip on your shoulder, and then are mad that no one else agrees with you, or backs you up.  So, I don't think I could add anything pertinent, or at least what you would consider pertinent.

To perform an actual, detailed analysis of the aircraft in question, and their respective performance differences for us would be a huge undertaking.  I've got a book of aerodynamic equations that would allow me to do it, if I had access to some data that I don't, and it would probably take me hours upon hours of personal time to do so, for each aircraft.  I've seen enough of HTC's methodology to know that their approximate performance modelling is pretty close to accurate, in that they consider almost all of the major aerodynamic forces that act upon a plane.  So, armed with that trust in their methods, I simply push the "I believe" button when there are things that I don't know or question, but don't have or don't make time to determine for myself, using those aforementioned aerodynamic equations.  So, if you really want to start comparing apples to apples, come in here with your power available/power required curves, propellor efficiency numbers, thrust approximations, et al instead of simply waving an anecdotal pilot report or a single chart that has undertermined origins.

You may be right, after all.  But most of us will remain skeptical until you can produce something tactile that we can wrap our minds around.  Being right doesn't matter at all if you can't convince people you are.  For me personally, I'm tired of your BBS Sniper tactics in these threads...
hey i'm sorry i thought somebody had the turn performance for the game done someplace ...

now i'm not about to take on another sim related project ...

i just thought that since everyone is so sure everything is correct in the game that the numbers would be available ...

someplace ...

 :headscratch:
There are tools out there that people have made showing turn radius, others have posted turn rate data.  What is possible or impossible in these games is just as clear as in the real things.  The same flight tests work in both.

right so i am gonna see some data from someone else on these boards ?

i'm so excited, where can i find it?

? ? ?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 03:29:22 PM by thorsim »
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #52 on: October 20, 2009, 03:29:54 PM »
I am not sure AH is correct in all cases, but Gaston's methodology is very flawed.

There are places that show the turn radius for various AH fighters, but none that I know of that show turn rate.  Widewing generally tests new aircraft as they are added and, so far as I can tell, is unbiased in his reports.
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #53 on: October 20, 2009, 03:40:42 PM »

 :headscratch:
right so i am gonna see some data from someone else on these boards ?

i'm so excited, where can i find it?

There are places that show the turn radius for various AH fighters, but none that I know of that show turn rate.  Widewing generally tests new aircraft as they are added and, so far as I can tell, is unbiased in his reports.

A thread that immediately came to my mind: MOSQ's Sustained Turn List
preceded by Kweassas List

And most important the tool to determine turn rate, radius and corner speed: Badboys Bootstrap Calculator
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 03:43:36 PM by Lusche »
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Offline thorsim

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #54 on: October 20, 2009, 03:42:04 PM »
I am not sure AH is correct in all cases, but Gaston's methodology is very flawed.

There are places that show the turn radius for various AH fighters, but none that I know of that show turn rate.  Widewing generally tests new aircraft as they are added and, so far as I can tell, is unbiased in his reports.

aww bummer and i was so excited ...

stoney, i can't discuss anything with nothing, no data, no point, no discussions ...

as far as gaston's arguments go i have no idea what is correct because as you say his methodology is not linear.  

which leaves very little that is able to be discussed.  that was my point in my original post you can't disagree here as there is nothing available for us to discuss in an informed manner.  

i am sorry you don't see more information from me.  i am frustrated i have seen no information at all from anyone.

no offense

+S+

t
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
Axis Co-Op
Quote from: any number of idiots here
blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline Angus

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #55 on: October 20, 2009, 04:06:36 PM »
Gaston, you could also fall into Crumpp's pit, praising more weight and hence heavier wingloading. For making this simple, you need lift for flying at all, and you need lots of it in a turn. Lift is an amalgam of thrust and area+angle etc.  And weight is just weight. Drop the power, and there is no lift except what you get when you travel down. And you cannot do that forever.
Heavier wingloading can be countered by power. And chopping power is the opposite. FYI, if WW2 aircraft entered a deadly turnfight, they were normally at screeming panick boost while shuddering at the stall. The Marseille trick I mentioned benefitted from carefully utilizing the leading edge slots to tighten a turn in order to get a bead. It would leave the shooter hanging in the air by the way, and the exit would have to be downwards.
Anyway, read this, and especially what HiTech wrote.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline hitech

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #56 on: October 20, 2009, 04:34:28 PM »
Gaston You do realize
Quote
torque becomes large enough that it outweighs the increase in RPM and we see the power start to drop
Is not applicable to any motors & operable RPM ranges in any of the plane set?

And as I stated Less power = less turn rate?

HiTech



Offline morfiend

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #57 on: October 20, 2009, 05:59:42 PM »
Thor,

  I guess you didnt see the post above,the 1 where Lusche points to the exact imformation you are looking for. Now that you have been handed what you wanted to proceed with your arguement,you know the fact that the game is biased to favor a certain segment of the plane set. Will you take the time,check all the figures and show us exactly where the bias is?

 Myself,I wish the FW's turned better and handled better,but the reality is the numbers dont add up to that fact.As a youngster I heard all sorts of stories from guys who were there. :salute In fact I had nightmares of "butcherBirds" shooting the{deleted} outta me from these "stories". So you see I admit I'm biased about the planeset,but that doesnt mean the "real" AC preformed any better than they do "ingame".

   :salute

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #58 on: October 20, 2009, 06:11:07 PM »
Ah yes--taking the proverbial ball and going home...

Actually, it's the proverbial Luftwhiner whine.  He wants his beloved Luftwhiner plane fixed because it's under modeled and everything else not Luftwhiner is over modeled.  He also wants everyone to fly his way and blames the flight model of the game for not making people fly the way he wants them too.  Also in true typical Luftwhiner style, he has failed each time to show any proof he's correct about his beloved Luftwhiner plane is under modeled while everything else is over modeled.


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Offline Widewing

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #59 on: October 20, 2009, 06:17:05 PM »
I am not sure AH is correct in all cases, but Gaston's methodology is very flawed.

There are places that show the turn radius for various AH fighters, but none that I know of that show turn rate.  Widewing generally tests new aircraft as they are added and, so far as I can tell, is unbiased in his reports.

Mosq's data showed turn rate. Mine does as well.

Perhaps a search of the forum would reveal if Mosq's data is still available on some server (in PDF format).

You can also use Badboy's bootstrap calculator to generate turn rate and radius data. Works very well.

You can download it here: http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Academy/AH_BootStrap.zip


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.