Author Topic: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests  (Read 34846 times)

Offline Badboy

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #225 on: October 27, 2009, 01:36:42 PM »
There's a bad tendency at the AH bbs to assume that because someone is new to the game, that they have no clue about air combat.  I have a long time friend I grew up with who now flies an F-16C in the air force.  If he came to the AH bbs, I'm sure he would be told he was a noob and needed to read Shaw.

I disagree, I'm sure if your Air Force buddy came to these boards, he would conduct himself in a way that would earn respect. I seem to notice that people who are challenged on these boards generally earn it. Most importantly, when somebody makes an incorrect or uninformed statement, or when they are simply wrong, there are often many helpful responses, it is only those who are wrong with determination and persistence who get bashed. Being wrong is a very honourable status, providing it is accompanied by an honest and open minded willingness to learn. The simple fact is, that some of the posters in this thread are not just wrong, they are persistently wrong and appear determined to remain so. I have no doubt that anyone trusted to fly an F-16 is very unlikely to fall into that category, and would be very well received here.

Badboy

     
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 02:55:03 PM by Badboy »
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Offline thorsim

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #226 on: October 27, 2009, 02:00:18 PM »
from a guy i know who just happens to have been a viper tester, after 400 or so combat missions in Southeast Asia ...

Quote
From a real world pilot that has flown planes from Cubs, Taylorcrafts, Luscombs, Champs, straight-wing and bent wing jets, and more, I have very serious doubts about many aspects of our flight models.

had pizza and beers with him a few days ago ...

+S+

t


I disagree, I'm sure if your Air Force buddy came to these boards, he would conduct himself in a way that would earn respect. I seem to notice that people who are challenged on these boards generally earn it. Most importantly, when somebody makes an incorrect or uniformed statement, or when they are simply wrong, there are often many helpful responses, it is only those who are wrong with determination and persistence who get bashed. Being wrong is a very honourable status, providing it is accompanied by an honest and open minded willingness to learn. The simple fact is, that some of the posters in this thread are not just wrong, they are persistently wrong and appear determined to remain so. I have no doubt that anyone trusted to fly an F-16 is very unlikely to fall into that category, and would be very well received here.

Badboy

    
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Offline boomerlu

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #227 on: October 27, 2009, 02:08:07 PM »
Wow, this argument is becoming like nuclear war - everybody loses.
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Offline blshar

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #228 on: October 27, 2009, 02:32:54 PM »
Translation: I can't win this fight with hard numbers, so I'll bring in hearsay from someone not even involved in the discussion.
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Offline thorsim

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #229 on: October 27, 2009, 02:41:54 PM »
always welcome to entertain dissenting opinions from other experts,
in fact i think i posted a request for any several pages ago ...

still waiting ...

+S+

t

Translation: I can't win this fight with hard numbers, so I'll bring in hearsay from someone not even involved in the discussion.
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
Axis Co-Op
Quote from: any number of idiots here
blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline blshar

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #230 on: October 27, 2009, 02:56:59 PM »
I like how you took gum's quote about warbirds and inferred he was talking about ah or sims in general.  He was criticizing that particular sim and Hotseats changes, not this one.

Quote
From a real world pilot that has flown planes from Cubs, Taylorcrafts, Luscombs, Champs, straight-wing and bent wing jets, and more, I have very serious doubts about many aspects of our flight models.

Nice slight of hand, but that seems to be your MO.

And so there's no confusion it's the 10th post on this page: http://www.squadselectforum.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=13896&sid=646d866c677e64846a86bd0cf57b754b
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 03:00:04 PM by blshar »
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #231 on: October 27, 2009, 03:02:46 PM »
I like how you took gum's quote about warbirds and inferred he was talking about ah or sims in general.  He was criticizing that particular sim and Hotseats changes, not this one.

Nice slight of hand, but that seems to be your MO.

And so there's no confusion it's the 10th post on this page: http://www.squadselectforum.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=13896&sid=646d866c677e64846a86bd0cf57b754b
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #232 on: October 27, 2009, 03:04:48 PM »
I was wondering where that quote came from. :headscratch:
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Offline Bronk

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #233 on: October 27, 2009, 03:09:18 PM »
I like how you took gum's quote about warbirds and inferred he was talking about ah or sims in general.  He was criticizing that particular sim and Hotseats changes, not this one.

Nice slight of hand, but that seems to be your MO.

And so there's no confusion it's the 10th post on this page: http://www.squadselectforum.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=13896&sid=646d866c677e64846a86bd0cf57b754b
:rofl

 Thor cherry picks/takes out of context almost like barbi or say crump.

Cmon thor who are you really. :rofl
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #234 on: October 27, 2009, 03:11:51 PM »
All I got to say now is:  :rolleyes:

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Offline thorsim

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #235 on: October 27, 2009, 03:12:47 PM »
if you think i am misrepresenting his opinions feel free to tell him so and then we can discuss it the next time i talk to him, or you can talk to him yourself assuming you know him as well as i do.

of course if you did you would also feel pretty comfortable including his opinion on the video games in this discussion because in person he is very specific and outspoken about what is right and what is wrong in the games.  




I like how you took gum's quote about warbirds and inferred he was talking about ah or sims in general.  He was criticizing that particular sim and Hotseats changes, not this one.

Nice slight of hand, but that seems to be your MO.

And so there's no confusion it's the 10th post on this page: http://www.squadselectforum.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=13896&sid=646d866c677e64846a86bd0cf57b754b
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 03:30:34 PM by thorsim »
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
Axis Co-Op
Quote from: any number of idiots here
blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline blshar

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #236 on: October 27, 2009, 03:19:38 PM »
Yes, they are different. I have plenty of experience with both.  I flew warbirds from '98-'04, plenty of s3's under my belt too.  In fact if you read the post you cherry picked from, Gums laments the fact that warbirds lost its fm designers before hotseat. I wonder who those guys were?  

You truly are something else, I've wasted enough time here.
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #237 on: October 27, 2009, 03:21:37 PM »
You really need to make it explicit if you're pulling quotes from another forum for a different game.  That is bad.  I'm done with this thread and feel thoroughly sullied.  :uhoh 
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Offline Bronk

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #238 on: October 27, 2009, 03:24:39 PM »
Banhammer for out write liez.
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: Turn rate hierarchy correlation from actual flight tests
« Reply #239 on: October 27, 2009, 03:25:44 PM »
I don't know.  I had the same question, and so I ran the test multiple times with a similar result.  In any case, the difference is small, about .7 seconds difference to complete a 360.  The difference looks large in the chart because of the Zscore scaling, i.e. a very large number of aircraft turn 360 degrees in +/- 18 seconds.

Here are the raw times to complete a 360 in sustained turn:

Oh, and before someone asks, I turned to the right with the XIV and Yaks, to the left with the rest.


just exactly how do you go about performing/flying to gather your test data for planes in the game? going by the highlighted bold lines I quoted you on, it looks as if you only are doing your test using 1 turn, maybe 2 turns tops........ are you using the stall limiter ( as has been the case by another gameplayer in the past, when he was doing a similar test )....

having differing fuel loads for the planes can skew the results as well........ they should be tested in the same setup of loadouts.not some with 75% and others with 50%......... using the same settings for all planes ie.... all at 25% or all at 50% etc...also setting the fuel burn to 0.0001 ( practically zero fuel burn ) so the weight remains constant, will give better results.........flying for a minimal of 3 complete turns ( I prefer minimal of 5 or minimal of 10 is even better ) and then doing an average by dividing the 3 / 5 / or 10 to get an average will be alot more accurate of what the actual test data shows, then just doing 1 or 2 turns.....

I am not trying to criticize your results...only trying to be more helpful........

also keeping your turning  with as little of an altitude rise/drop say less than 50 ft (no more than 100 ft) will be even more accurate ..meaning the less altitude variance the better the data......

then have 2 or 3 others perform the same test, using the same procedures to cross reference......if 1 person has set data , but the 2 others are more in line with each other or vice versa. will show any potential mistakes in the data.....

If you have any questions, I am sure their are people in the game that will have no problems with offering you solid answers / suggestions ......

I have seen many people go forth and test......but their are maybe 4 or 5 tops I will not worry about when they post plane performance data from the game, and it is always best to post with your data what version & patch of the game the testing was done in........

YMMV......

hope this helps

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