Available WEP time

[F4UDOA]

Been doing a little reading into WEP in different A/C. Apparently there is a couple of discrepancies with the tech specs.

In AH the F6F-5 has 5 minutes of WEP.
Actual available WEP in the F6F-5 was 15minutes. Check this PDF for verification.

 http://214th.com/ww2/

Also the F4U-1D has 5 minutes of WEP in AH.
Actual data has it at 8.5 minutes of water injection.

 

If anyone has similar documents for the P-47, P-51 and P-38 please post a link or email them to me. From the P-38L pilots manual it looks as if there is 5 minutes of WEP but a more detailed document would be better.

Just as a reference the P-47 water is probably way off.

here is the available water and duration in AH and real life. (Gallons from AHT)

F4U-1D
Gallons=90
Duration=8.5minutes
Aces High duration=5min.

F6F-5
Gallons=119
Duration=15minutes
Aces high duration=5min

P-47D-25
Gallons=248!!!
Duration=N/A
Aces High=5min<==probably wrong

Note: The FW190A8 does have a full 10minutes of WEP.

[StSanta]

Nic data F4UDOA; you're doing a really fine job.  

Turn your attention to the LW aircraft, please  .



------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch

[Ripsnort]

 

Originally posted by StSanta:

Turn your attention to the LW aircraft, please   .

Santa, with all due respect, not an ounce of pity falls on those who claim something is porked, but has no data to back it up.

Do the research yourself, you'll not only learn something, but may actually break the mold of special interest whine associated with it.

<S> F4UDOA, great stuff, now where is Pyro's/HT's reply?

[F4UDOA]

StSanta,

I did look at the FW190A-8. Funny thing I noticed was this.

The FW190F-8 had a third fuel tank in addition to the two in an A-8. This third tank could be filled with GM-1(nitrous Oxide) instead of fuel for better performance. I guess this is the reason for the recent out cry for the F-8 in AH.

We should call that post "Secret Agenda of the Luftwabbles"  

[funked]

There should be a WEP multiplier just like the fuel multiplier.  For some planes to have a WEP time as long as their fuel time is ridiculous.

[Lephturn]

F4DOA... you are da man.  

With water injection, could you run it consistently intil it ran out, or would the engine overheat first or have other problems?

Now as for the Jug, .... oh yeah bring me more WEP.  The Jug WEP seems really weak compared to how it was back in WB in the old days.  Do you have any speed specs for the Jug in Mil. vs. WEP?

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

[whels1]

well in AH u never run out of wep ability really, just cool down and u got wep again.
but in RL theyy had limited wep, once they
run out of water, meth, o what ever they used, they had no  wep left except for over 100% power setting.

we need 2 stage wep in AH, 1st stage is just using higher then 100% power setting, 2nd stage would be using the water injection or meth....ect

Whels

 

Originally posted by F4UDOA:
StSanta,

I did look at the FW190A-8. Funny thing I noticed was this.

The FW190F-8 had a third fuel tank in addition to the two in an A-8. This third tank could be filled with GM-1(nitrous Oxide) instead of fuel for better performance. I guess this is the reason for the recent out cry for the F-8 in AH.

We should call that post "Secret Agenda of the Luftwabbles"  

[MANDOBLE]

F4UDOA, AFAIK, all 190A8 had this extra tank able to contain enough methanol/water mix for 40 mins of boost usage in periods of no more than 10 mins with resting periods of 5 mins. Suppose these numbers are also applicable to petrol injection system or GM-1.

So, if the F4U has a water tank for 8 mins of WEP, 190A8 has one for 40 mins.

[F4UDOA]

Lephturn,

Most Jug data I have is from AHT. I just can't find much data for Army Air corps birds like you can for Navy birds. It's very strange considering how much more there has been written about the AAF than the Navy/Marines. The actual documents are much harder to come by. In any case the Jug seems to suffer more from the lack of boost than other PW-2800 birds. On the other hand it also gets more out of it when it has it to use. The P-47 seems to gain almost 25% climb gain with WEP than Military power as compared to the F4U and F6F that gain only about 10%. However it is obvious based on the amount of water in the P-47 that the designers were aware of this gain.

Also keep in mind that the water injection on American birds was not the same as the German GM-1 which was nitrous oxide. The water was designed purely to cool cylinder head temperatures when operating at higher manifold pressures and higher temperatures. The American answer to that would have been to simply run at a higher octane mix alla 115/130 fuel. The Brits also did this.

Whels1,

I am embarrassed to say I did not know this. I thought when you ran out you were out. I didn't think there was a cool down period built into to the FM. I will check this out.

Later
F4UDOA

[F4UDOA]

Mandoble,

I stand corrected<S>.

I misread one sentence that changed what I was reading. The tank was 25.3 gallons according to Smithsonian institute press.

Further
empty weight 6,750lbs
Loaded weight 10,725lbs

Horsepower=1,730

Armament
Fuselage- 2 13mm MG 131 machines guns
Wings- 2 20mill MG 151 cannon

[Sorrow[S=A]]

F4u- yes I think whats modeled is the engine's specification of how long they were supposed to be run at that setting. So IRL the P-47 had tons of coolant in the tank the engine was specified to only be run at 5 minutes per use. (and I am sure the pilots cared about THAT in combat!)

Pyro posted a page about the engine in the F4U I believe, in a thread on engine weardown where people were asking engines to "break" if left at 100% a whole flight. The book listed that the engine was "rated" to be run only 5 minutes at the WEP setting to prevent premature wear. I think these are the settings he used for these things.

[chisel]

F4UDOA

"Also keep in mind that the water injection on American birds was not the same as the German GM-1 which was nitrous oxide. The water was designed purely to cool cylinder head temperatures when operating at higher manifold pressures and higher temperatures. The American answer to that would have been to simply run at a higher octane mix alla 115/130 fuel. The Brits also did this."

You confused the heck outta me with that paragraph.

Water injection on allied planes = German MW30/MW50
Used to prevent detonation at high boost.

GM-1, HA-HA, Goerings brew: Nitrous Oxide. Supplys Oxygen for high altitude operation.

[F4UDOA]

Chisel,

I'm not saying that they are the same thing. I am saying that when looking for higher performance at alt the Americans took a different route than the Germans. I am very familiar with the use of water to cool and prevent premature detonation, therefore allowing higher manifold pressures. Increasing the octane rating in the fuel does effectively the same thing(not detonating prematurely at lower pressure).

Nitrous is another story. I am not as familiar with it's application.

As far as combat range I would suggest looking harder at the chart listed above states under the combat section of the range chart. Combat 20minutes at 15,000ft. 8.5 minutes WEP, 11.5 minutes Mil. power and descend. I belive these are a series of actions that are quite literal giving you the max combat range with variance listed below for faster cruise time.

Sorrow,

The P-47 had a ton of water for cooling at higher temperatures/manifold pressure. I didn't list the limit on consecutive use because I don't see it. But if you think WW2 fighters and there pilots did not exceed the limits for premature wear you are mistaken. I have a book on fighter design that clearly states that air cooled engines specifically were operated beyond what for a liquid cooled engine would be acceptable.

In fact Charles Lindbergh flew combat missions in the south pacific showing pilots how to run there engines very lean/hot to maximize range. Mainly because they were "built to take it".  

[Jochen]

 

The FW190F-8 had a third fuel tank in addition to the two in an A-8. This third tank could be filled with GM-1(nitrous Oxide) instead of fuel for better performance. I guess this is the reason for the recent out cry for the F-8 in AH.

If you look carefully enough you would see that AH A-8 already has three fuel tanks unlike A-5 which has two.

The extra tank (EXT) is used as fuel tank in AH. It could have been filled with MW 50 (methanol 50% / water 50%) liquid but since MW 50 was not fitted to most A-8's it was used as fuel tank.

GM 1 system contains high pressure liquid nitrous oxygen and you cannot store it in normal fuel tank like EXT in A-8! It was stored in small spherical high pressure tanks or normal cylindrical high pressure tanks.

F-8 used emergency fuel injection to obtain extra power at altitudes below 1000 m (3280 ft) by injecting normal fuel to supercharger inlet, cooling piston heads and cylinders and causing same effect as MW 50.

 

We should call that post "Secret Agenda of the Luftwabbles"

No you should not if you don't know what you are talking about...

------------------
jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski

Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.

Sieg oder bolsevismus!

[This message has been edited by Jochen (edited 01-31-2001).]

[F4UDOA]

Jochen,

I have already said that the GM-1 tank was available in the A8 as well. The tank was 25.3 gallons. So I guess I do know know what I'm talking about.

Try reading the thread before criticizing.

[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 01-31-2001).]