Author Topic: Example CIC orders  (Read 3860 times)

Offline Stoney

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Re: Example CIC orders
« Reply #60 on: November 05, 2009, 11:41:50 PM »
This is a very clear point in my assessment the bomber part of the FSO is getting worse...Stoney suggested a reasoning for the Admin's line of thinking...Bombers at 15,000 to 18,000 ft are at a disadvantage from enemy fighters...

Hmm...B-17s versus A6M2 or A6M5 even.  Explain how B-17s are at a disadvantage against those two fighters at any altitude?  This isn't an 8th Air Force setup.  Without speaking for Baumer, if its my setup, and we're in Europe, I wouldn't expect B-17s to be at 12,000 feet.  In the PTO, even during the war, US and IJA/IJN pilots rarely flew with oxygen.  With some exceptions, the entire air war in the Pacific took place below 15,000 feet.  The early B-29 raids were about the only regular exception.  If I'm creating a PTO event, I'll definitely use the design tools available to me to keep the fight at close to realistic altitudes.  If the community doesn't want that, and they want to see Hellcats and Zekes at 25-30,000 feet, then so be it.  Get some consensus from the FSO community, and I'll set up an event that will have you at whatever altitude you want.

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That would imply that FSO designs are now being catered for easy picking on bombers forced to fly at lower altitudes...

Dead wrong.  Every special, event-specific rule we use has a purpose for the event.  Sometimes they don't exactly turn out the way we think they will, but there is an intent behind every one of them.  If you see a rule you don't understand, then please ask.  All of us are more than happy to explain our decisions to the community.  You may not agree with them all the time, but don't think that we're throwing darts.  I've used higher fuel burns before, and have seen players react with "you didn't give us enough fuel to fly the mission!", but in reality, I didn't give them enough fuel to fly around on full throttle for 2 hours.  I've seen players say "you didn't give us enough time to hit the target by T+60", but in reality, I didn't give them enough time to climb to 28,000 feet and take a 350 mile circuitous route that approached the target from out of the sun.

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This has been most likely an oversight from spacing targets from each other to give clear area of operations for attackers and defenders at a target.

Please, if something seems weird to you, ask us about it.  We love this event, and we want to make it as dynamic and immersive as possible.  To do so, we use different tools, rules, configurations, side balance, scoring systems, etc.  Every thing we do is deliberate and thought out.  It doesn't always work, but each setup gives us an opportunity to explore new ways to make the event better.  We post our setups early so the community can discuss them and ask questions.  We actively pursue input from the players to find ways to achieve things the players want.  You have an idea on a setup?  Let us know.  Want to see a specific battle or match up?  Let us know.
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

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Offline daddog

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Re: Example CIC orders
« Reply #61 on: November 06, 2009, 10:23:19 AM »
Just a quick reply, more later. :)

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The saying, until you do it yourself you'll never understand.
I don't think I have ever said that yet to a small degree I would agree with it, but at the same time over the years I have had some of the best ideas for events from players. Just don't want you thinking the above statement is where I am coming from. :) I read every post and PM by players and really make an effort to 'hear' what they are saying. :)



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Offline daddog

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Re: Example CIC orders
« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2009, 12:10:10 PM »
This is so right on by Stoney I had to repeat it.
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I've used higher fuel burns before, and have seen players react with "you didn't give us enough fuel to fly the mission!", but in reality, I didn't give them enough fuel to fly around on full throttle for 2 hours.  I've seen players say "you didn't give us enough time to hit the target by T+60", but in reality, I didn't give them enough time to climb to 28,000 feet and take a 350 mile circuitous route that approached the target from out of the sun.


This is also worth repeating. :)
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Every special, event-specific rule we use has a purpose for the event.  Sometimes they don't exactly turn out the way we think they will, but there is an intent behind every one of them.  If you see a rule you don't understand, then please ask.  All of us are more than happy to explain our decisions to the community.  You may not agree with them all the time, but don't think that we're throwing darts.
Noses in the wind since 1997
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Offline AKKuya

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Re: Example CIC orders
« Reply #63 on: November 06, 2009, 08:25:33 PM »
This is a post in the AK forums by AKWxman and used with his permission.  A newer member of the squad had asked what the deal was with the FSO debate.


I’ll give a little history about FSO from my perspective.

I started flying Tour of Duty (pre FSO) like many of us during my 2 week trial before joining the AK’s back in July 2003. I thought was a wonderful venue that allowed players (generally the Squadron CO) to design strategy for a semi realistic battle. At the time my only worry was to follow orders, stay with the group, stay alive and get a kill. Much like it is for many of you now. As long as fair play was followed it was quite simple then with few rules, the biggest being observing the one life per frame.

After a little more than a year, our Squadron CO at that time (AKCurly) asked me to take over FSO duties, i.e. command the Arabian Knights for this venue. My responsibility increased to making sure that everyone in the squadron knew what plane to fly, what our mission was, where to launch and to make sure everyone knew what few rules were involved.

My duties also included to prepare and distribute the orders for whatever side we were on when it was the AK’s turn to be Commander in Charge (CiC) of the frame. I was told back then the purpose of these orders was to give some cohesion and order so that various target could be defended and/or attack, with the primary purpose of winning the frame. I was also told this was why each frame was scored. As a CiC then, you could devise any legitimate battle strategy to employ; feints, fighter sweeps, escorted bomber attacks, hit and run, etc., all in the hope that by the end of the frame your side scored more points than the other. While the strategy could get complicated, it was unencumbered by a lot of rules. It was simply one side battling the other.

As FSO grew it began to change. Players began to complain about certain aspects of the strategy being employed.

The first rule adopted was that all targets were to be attacked. Some CiC’s used a concentration of force on higher valued targets leaving lower value targets untouched. Those defending the untouched targets complained about no enemy contact for the 2 hour period, a valid concern.

The second rule adopted was that all targets were to be defended. Again some CiC’s left some lower valued targets undefended while providing more protection to higher value targets. Those attacking the undefended targets complained about milk runs and not being able to engage in a fight. From a game play advantage perhaps a valid concern, but not in deciding overall strategy and allocation of resources in my opinion.

The third rule adopted was the T+60 rule. It stated that all targets had to be attacked 60 minutes into the frame. This was a game play decision to hold the players interest in the event so that they could see some action early enough and not have to possibly wait until the end of the frame. In my opinion this had its merits, but effectively forced the CiC to employ some resources earlier than he was accustomed to. However at that time, a fighter sweep was deemed to fulfill the requirement of the rule.

The fourth rule adopted was the use of minimum/maximum set of aircraft. This was done after a Pacific frame that one CiC that used only N1K1’s for defense. A valid strategy but game play was said to be affected.

The fifth rule adopted was that bombs had to be dropped on target by T+60. It was another game play decision. It was said that this rule was adopted to prevent a small squad from strafing the target then running away. Effectively in my opinion it was to eliminate the fighter sweep near the T+60 mark and forcing the bomber and/or JABO’s to commit to action early so that the defenders would have a chance to prevent the destruction of the target. Again it was another limit on strategy that could be employed.

The sixth rule adopted was that a minimum of 11 to 15 aircraft defend or attack any target. Some CiC’s were satisfying rule 2 and 3 by assigning a small squad to defend or attack target, sometimes being overwhelmed. Again a game play consideration.

The latest and final rule of 1 target/1 mission is strictly a game play consideration to prevent an overwhelming force against any one target. This is to allow the defenders a chance to survive and perhaps get some kills. It has nothing to do with effective strategy to win.

This last rule I feel sums up the direction that FSO is taking. It is no longer about strategy or semi realistic recreation of battles. It is turning into making sure every one has a chance to get a kill. As I stated in the FSO thread, I feel it will make every mission in every frame the same as the one before. The template has been formed. It’s not the FSO I have been accustomed to the last several years. It will feel like an extension of the MA albeit at a slower pace.

Finally some may consider this a bit paranoid, but 5 of the 7 rule changes mentioned above have occurred immediately after I have CiC’d or wrote the orders for a frame. Therefore, while I may continue to participate is some diminished capacity. I will no longer CiC another frame or write the orders.

Wx



This post is very clear on the issues.
Chuck Norris can pick oranges from an apple tree and make the best lemonade in the world. Every morning when you wake up, swallow a live toad. Nothing worse can happen to you for the rest of the day. They say money can't buy happiness. I would like the opportunity to find out. Why be serious?

Offline Saxman

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Re: Example CIC orders
« Reply #64 on: November 06, 2009, 08:53:32 PM »

Finally some may consider this a bit paranoid, but 5 of the 7 rule changes mentioned above have occurred immediately after I have CiC’d or wrote the orders for a frame.


AH HAH! It's all YOUR fault!  :bolt:

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Offline akbmzawy

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Re: Example CIC orders
« Reply #65 on: November 08, 2009, 07:17:51 AM »
This thread has had some some fantastic debates but has abruptly ended after Weathermans post in our threads which was reposted here. Saxman then replied that its his fault,  :) . However what I see here is that WX has won, as no reply has been made, or others have just given up.

My point of view has not changed. T+ 60 minute rule for bombers at target is wrong.

Offline Chapel

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Re: Example CIC orders
« Reply #66 on: November 08, 2009, 11:16:09 AM »
This thread has had some some fantastic debates but has abruptly ended after Weathermans post in our threads which was reposted here. Saxman then replied that its his fault,  :) . However what I see here is that WX has won, as no reply has been made, or others have just given up.

My point of view has not changed. T+ 60 minute rule for bombers at target is wrong.

In a discussion of this sort, it's not about "Winning" or "losing", it's about what makes something better for everyone.
Attendance low for the last frame has nothing to do with the T+60 rule, because it's been around for years and there have been plenty in attendance over that time period.
The CM's have worked tirelessly, thanklessly (for the most part), and without compensation other than the satisfaction of accomplishing something for the masses, and they do so to make their events better. Better for everyone involved.

Agree with a rule, disagree with a rule, that's everyone's right in a conversation....
The reasons behind the rules have been posted for all to see, but just stating that it's "Wrong" and that your side has won the argument because no one else replied doesn't really cut it.
If you disagree with a rule, you need to provide adequate justification to back your position.

Rolling Thunder

Offline WxMan

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Re: Example CIC orders
« Reply #67 on: November 08, 2009, 12:43:40 PM »
This thread has had some some fantastic debates but has abruptly ended after Weathermans post in our threads which was reposted here. Saxman then replied that its his fault,  :) . However what I see here is that WX has won, as no reply has been made, or others have just given up.

My point of view has not changed. T+ 60 minute rule for bombers at target is wrong.
Attendance low for the last frame has nothing to do with the T+60 rule, because it's been around for years and there have been plenty in attendance over that time period.

 :headscratch: You quoted him verbatim. How do you attribute this remark to what AKBmzawy said. In fact no where within this thread is the T+60 rule and attendance remotely linked.

Agree with a rule, disagree with a rule, that's everyone's right in a conversation....
The reasons behind the rules have been posted for all to see, but just stating that it's "Wrong" and that your side has won the argument because no one else replied doesn't really cut it.
If you disagree with a rule, you need to provide adequate justification to back your position.

Perhaps you didn't bother to read his previous post:
As Bomber Lead many times I understand the the intent of the T+ 60 intent.

However it really limits the direction and altitude bombers can approach their targets.

Defending fighters can guess where and when the attack will come from and the time.

So to me personally this within itself takes the guessing away from the defenders.

I would say abolish the T+ 60 rule and be more able to plan routes more accordingly to fuel burn. If we can come in undected and drop eggs on our return trip home we dont have to do a 180 degree turn for RTB to face the onslaught of fighters. We all want to survive and feel good about being able to have our choice. I know this wont happen but its my 2 cents.

Perhaps before making assumptions, you should familiarize yourself with the subject.
AKWxMan
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Offline Chapel

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Re: Example CIC orders
« Reply #68 on: November 08, 2009, 03:17:43 PM »
OK, you win. Congrats.   :devil

Look, I'm wasn't trying to pick a fight, I've read the arguments both ways, and understand the concerns either way.
The CM's have stated why they have the T+60 rule in place. Plain and simple they want to assure action in a timely manner.
Yes I understand this means that you can't climb out to the altitude you wish every time.
Yes I understand that you can't always take the circuitous route that avoids all detect, enemy contact, and makes gets you to target without incident.
It's also been stated that usually Bombers have a pretty high rate of return in FSO, barring the single dive bomber variety.

I understand all these concerns and felt that the participants in this conversation understood both sides of the argument weather they agreed with them or not.
I also assumed that before replying you'd read your squadmates post on another thread attributing low numbers in Frame 1 to the rules.

As it stands however, my statement wasn't one of attack at you, akbmzawy, or anyone else. My statement was more to the effect that this isn't a conversation you "Win", but try to come to amicable rules that make the event enjoyable for all.


Rolling Thunder

Offline daddog

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Re: Example CIC orders
« Reply #69 on: November 08, 2009, 05:39:13 PM »
LOL

What Chapel said. No winning or losing. Silly to look at it that way. As you can see from the number of my posts I freely debate/argue points, but generally not in public. Probably 80% of my posts over the years have been in the private event forums.  As for not replying I have been busy with the December FSO design.

Also Wx made it quite clear that he was not going to CiC any more and I was in doubt as to the value of my time spend in a reply. I am sorry we lost you as a CiC. Nevertheless…

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The fourth rule adopted was the use of minimum/maximum set of aircraft. This was done after a Pacific frame that one CiC that used only N1K1’s for defense. A valid strategy but game play was said to be affected.
Just to be clear this is not a rule.
http://ahevents.org/fso-related/fso-rules.html
Also recall another frame a few years back when one side had a couple IL2’s and the rest we all in LA5’s. And other frames…
Admin CM’s create their own minimums, maximums, or employ both in their designs. It is not a rule.

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The sixth rule adopted was that a minimum of 11 to 15 aircraft defend or attack any target. Some CiC’s were satisfying rule 2 and 3 by assigning a small squad to defend or attack target, sometimes being overwhelmed. Again a game play consideration.
Again I believe you are mistaken. This is not a rule, unless the Admin CM puts it in.

I understand much of what you are saying and even agree with you on some points, but if sacrificing some CiC ingenuity means a more enjoyable evening for many FSO players then it is worth it to me. My focus is the enjoyment of the players, not that the CiC’s have all their imagination at their disposal to use as they see fit.   

IMHO the rule changes over the years have improved the event from a player stand point. Yes I agree they have subtracted from the inventiveness a CiC might employ, but how many more have enjoyed an FSO evening because we had a rule that did not allow a CiC to:
1. Attack all target at 1 hour 50 minutes into the frame.
2. Send in a single fighter at T+59 minutes and then the rest of the squad at T+1 hour 50 minutes.
3. Everyone up in a fighter, the best one on the list.
4. Just attack ¼  of the targets with an overwhelming force and let the other defending squads circle their base for 2 hours without any action.
The list could go on….

Yes the rules hamstring the CiC’s in many respects, but they also help ensure players have an enjoyable evening in FSO.
Noses in the wind since 1997
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Offline AKKuya

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Re: Example CIC orders
« Reply #70 on: November 08, 2009, 08:37:01 PM »
DD, your last post was very informative.  Thank you. 








Chuck Norris can pick oranges from an apple tree and make the best lemonade in the world. Every morning when you wake up, swallow a live toad. Nothing worse can happen to you for the rest of the day. They say money can't buy happiness. I would like the opportunity to find out. Why be serious?

Offline daddog

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Re: Example CIC orders
« Reply #71 on: November 09, 2009, 11:52:38 AM »
<S>
Thank you sir. Glad it helped.
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Example CIC orders
« Reply #72 on: November 09, 2009, 01:03:19 PM »
Yes the rules hamstring the CiC’s in many respects, but they also help ensure players have an enjoyable evening in FSO.

+1

Last Friday was my first FSO ever without spotting an enemy aircraft, and I doubt it will happen again soon.  After all, as a Kate pilot, I was happy to have a milk run. :)
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Offline daddog

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Re: Example CIC orders
« Reply #73 on: November 09, 2009, 02:02:05 PM »
That is good Gav, well... I mean that is good it was the first time. :) How long in FSO?
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