Author Topic: barrel roll defense  (Read 4731 times)

Offline Ardy123

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barrel roll defense
« on: October 27, 2009, 01:35:08 PM »
Often,  when a con is on my six I try to break into some sort of scissors to force an overshoot. I have noticed that...

(NOTE: This is all done using a 109G14)

1) If I cut my throttle and go into a flat scissors (esp when above 250mph), the con usually overshoots but I have blown all my e. Also, I'm usually forced into a situation where the  now mismatched e state leaves me in a position where Im constantly on the defense as the attacker just yo-yos and bnzs me until I screw up.

2) If I go up and roll over or go to the left, then go up and roll over, the attacker is able to follow me in the ACM and maintains on my 6. Needless to say, I die or resort back to option 1.

3) Sometimes, if there is a huge e discrepancy and I feel like doing something risky, at 400 out, I'll pull throttle off, slam right rudder and pull back and to the left on the stick, then I'll slip and barrel roll and wind up nicely on the attackers six, but again with less e than him.


Now, I have seen people do option 2 and just basic barrel rolls as a defensive maneuver but I am unable to make it work for me, what are the tricks, How can I evade an attacker with out loosing most of  my 'e'?

Thanks
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Offline boomerlu

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Re: barrel roll defense
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2009, 01:55:21 PM »
Something Junky showed me...

Start scissoring a little, but retain some E. When your opponent is close enough, on the last scissor, instead of doing a flat reversal, roll 45 degrees and barrel roll. Place your lift vector BEHIND your opponent - this is NOT the time to use lead pursuit. Ironically, when somebody mentioned Flyboys the movie on this forum, I watched it. Terrible movie, but I recognized the use of this exact barrel roll reversal, I wonder if Junky learned it from there  :lol :lol.

Anyways, the point is, separation is important in a barrel roll.

Also, the E disadvantage you speak of - being in a 109, you should be able to make up the discrepancy unless your opponent is in another uber-accelerating plane like the 109 or Spit.
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Offline mtnman

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Re: barrel roll defense
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2009, 01:58:18 PM »
Often,  when a con is on my six I try to break into some sort of scissors to force an overshoot. I have noticed that...

(NOTE: This is all done using a 109G14)

1) If I cut my throttle and go into a flat scissors (esp when above 250mph), the con usually overshoots but I have blown all my e. Also, I'm usually forced into a situation where the  now mismatched e state leaves me in a position where Im constantly on the defense as the attacker just yo-yos and bnzs me until I screw up.

2) If I go up and roll over or go to the left, then go up and roll over, the attacker is able to follow me in the ACM and maintains on my 6. Needless to say, I die or resort back to option 1.

3) Sometimes, if there is a huge e discrepancy and I feel like doing something risky, at 400 out, I'll pull throttle off, slam right rudder and pull back and to the left on the stick, then I'll slip and barrel roll and wind up nicely on the attackers six, but again with less e than him.


Now, I have seen people do option 2 and just basic barrel rolls as a defensive maneuver but I am unable to make it work for me, what are the tricks, How can I evade an attacker with out loosing most of  my 'e'?

Thanks


If you use option #2, it's pretty easy for your opponent to just follow you through and shoot you.  An easy trick to stop this from happening is to initiate the BRD with a turn to one side first.  I prefer to start with a fairly sharp, but not blacked-out turn to the right, with my nose down about 15 degrees, so I can keep my speed.  The object here is to get the opponent approaching somewhat from the side, not from directly behind you.

So, broken-down, my BRD defense goes like this-

With opponent approaching from behind, about 1.2-1.5 back (if he's closer I'm probably going to do something a bit different), begin a fairly hard, nose down turn to the right.  This will be a 90-100 degree turn.  As opponent cuts inside my turn, he'll be approaching from about my 4:30.  I then roll wings-level, and allow him to close.

As the icon counter clicks through D800, and is almost going to click at D600, I pull up about 15 degrees nose high, just at the instant I think he'll open fire.  This makes him miss, and he'll be preparing to cross behind me, from my right to my left.

About 1/2 to 1 second after I go nose up, I start my roll to the left.  Done with the proper timing we'll be approximately canopy to canopy, with me inverted as I do my roll.  Since he's flying the straighter path, I'll come through my roll behind him.

Here's the kicker though- I don't want to get slow to create the overshoot.  I'm creating it by causing him to approach from the side, and by flying the longer path.  In effect, you're tempting him to fly the straighter, more predictable path by presenting him with what he thinks will be a shot (your initial turn, followed by level flight) which you then dodge of course as you go nose-up for the barrel roll.

The beauty of this is that after your BRD is finished, you won't be that much slower than you were.  Ready to do it again, or ready to capitalize if he turns to sharply as he passes by...

I'll see if I can find a film quick.
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Offline mtnman

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Re: barrel roll defense
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2009, 02:30:00 PM »
Here are two films.

Like any other maneuver, you'll need to tailor it to each situation.  Speeds, angles, etc will need to be adjusted depending on the circumstance.  You'll see some of that here.

These aren't all necessarily "textbook" BRD, but you'll get the idea I think.  I set it up over and over in these two clips, and alter it a bit here and there, or abort it if things don't look right.  It's also very important to closely watch your opponent, so if he "fakes" the attach, but then stays out, you don't complete the maneuver pointlessly (and blow a little E in the process).

In a situation like these, where I can't catch my opponent, I keep pointing away, so I can increase horizontal separation between his passes.  Notice that after the maneuver, I don't follow him (or you) too far, but rather change heading to get him to latch onto my six again.  This is a way for me to burn his E advantage (he wastes it chasing me). 

I also take advantage of "blind spots" when possible to change heading from where he last saw me.  I do this when his vision of me is blocked by his wings, etc (you see an example of it near the end of the 190 film).  The idea here is that he'll blow some E on an incorrect maneuver, or a few extra turns, because he's setting up based on where he thinks I'll be, instead of where I'll really be.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/wwydzo1mcnh/ardy123.ahf

http://www.mediafire.com/file/myanywjzigm/190D9 dodging.ahf
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Offline Spatula

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Re: barrel roll defense
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2009, 02:41:31 PM »
Yip the trick is to get your opponent approaching you from a high angle off tail, and pulling lead pursuit, then initiate the BRD at the correct time. The set up and timing are crucial. Like Mtnman I set up with a moderate break turn to give the appearance of an easy target and to lull the bandit into attempting a tracking shot. I tighten my turn up as they close in forcing them to pull more and more lead. Very quickly they're pulling lots of gs attempting to pull the requisite lead and I may actually even vanish under their nose just as they about to fire. At this stage they can't even see you initiate the reversal. They miss, relax gs to see if the shot scored only to find I've allready done 1/2 the BRD, and they have all but overshot. The rest of the overshoot is all but assured.

The BRD works better if there is speed differential adding to the closure rate generated by their lead pursuit.

http://www.major.geek.nz/AKUAG/TheVault_Files/FilmDetails.aspx?name=barrelDefenseAndKill.zip
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 02:44:02 PM by Spatula »
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Offline BillyD

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Re: barrel roll defense
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2009, 02:45:10 PM »
I have some great films of this for you ardy I'll post them after work. Mtn mans idea is dead on but I usually do it to the left cause our birds suck to the right ( lol ).

The e state is big in this, and also the old hands here have seen it alot so they'll slow down with you and follow you up and over.  
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 02:47:24 PM by BillyD »
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Offline Ardy123

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Re: barrel roll defense
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2009, 03:12:38 PM »
Thanks guys.
Its strange, I see how you guys have done it, but for example, lets say I'm fighting a spit16 (cuz there are 100s of them every night in the ma), I'll turn to the left to cause them to attempt to get lead, and they won't bite, instead they play lag or worse yet, are on my six just following my turn. It seams it requires me to create a large 'e' discrepancy between me and the attacker before I can force an off angle situation. It may be that my timing is off.. I don't know :headscratch:

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Offline shiv

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Re: barrel roll defense
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2009, 03:58:08 PM »
When I was first learning it I went to the DA and flew about 5K in the middle of the lake.  No shortage of guys willing to play along and attack you.
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: barrel roll defense
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2009, 04:06:34 PM »
here is a Thread covering the barrel roll defense........

Teaching Aid Thread by Badboy
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,173151.0.html

wait for the avi to load or scroll down and you'll see where Badboy posted a better version of it, embeded in the thread.... let it fully load then watch it again by refreshing your monitor

also other great info from Murdr


( some links might not be available since we are rebuilding the Aces high Trainers website )

hope this helps
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Offline mtnman

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Re: barrel roll defense
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2009, 04:08:17 PM »
Thanks guys.
Its strange, I see how you guys have done it, but for example, lets say I'm fighting a spit16 (cuz there are 100s of them every night in the ma), I'll turn to the left to cause them to attempt to get lead, and they won't bite, instead they play lag or worse yet, are on my six just following my turn. It seams it requires me to create a large 'e' discrepancy between me and the attacker before I can force an off angle situation. It may be that my timing is off.. I don't know :headscratch:

It just takes practice.  In the beginning, you'll probably need to do like you mention, and set them up with a large E-discrepancy.  As you master that, it'll get easier, and you'll find you can be more "casual" or daring with your set-ups.

Concentrate on one "version" for now, and in the DA sounds like a good idea, and get it down.  It's much easier when you have your opponent higher, and diving in with excess speed.  It's harder to turn it into a kill for you in the at case, but it's easier to get the overshoot and survive.
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Offline SPKmes

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Re: barrel roll defense
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2009, 04:32:08 PM »
I know how you feel Ardy...it wasn't till I went through it with spatula that I was able get it right...still there are times that it doesn't work but the majority of the time it does, you really have to learn how to ensure the con plays to your game so that you control there E state somewhat (took me some time)...as I have said before, these films and screens are good but nothing beats getting with somebody (mtnman,spat or any of the other proficient guys in the TA) and doing it for yourself that way you can get a feel it (so to speak). 
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 04:34:10 PM by SPKmes »

Offline BillyD

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Re: barrel roll defense
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2009, 04:49:04 PM »
I know how you feel Ardy...it wasn't till I went through it with spatula that I was able get it right...still there are times that it doesn't work but the majority of the time it does, you really have to learn how to ensure the con plays to your game so that you control there E state somewhat (took me some time)...as I have said before, these films and screens are good but nothing beats getting with somebody (mtnman,spat or any of the other proficient guys in the TA) and doing it for yourself that way you can get a feel it (so to speak).  


I'll be on tonight Ardy if you want to practice. Tongs nails this one on the head. There are also some planes, 50cal and hispano armed birds that make this a much more dangerous game of cat and mouse because of thier great ballistics even when pulling lead. You really have to cut into them hard before the vert to avoid getting your arse shot up.
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Offline Ardy123

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Re: barrel roll defense
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2009, 04:58:08 PM »

I'll be on tonight Ardy if you want to practice. Tongs nails this one on the head. There are also some planes, 50cal and hispano armed birds that make this a much more dangerous game of cat and mouse because of thier great ballistics even when pulling lead. You really have to cut into them hard before the vert to avoid getting your arse shot up.

Ok, Thanks BillyD, I'd love to practice this, esp against spits, cuz they always get me when I attempt this ACM in the MA. I'll be on, but around 10PST.

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Offline Agent360

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Re: barrel roll defense
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2009, 08:43:08 PM »
Ardy,

The situations u describe all result from the attacker following in LAG pursuit. All of them describe the attacker as behind you or put another way with you in constant overshoot via angles.

The real problem is how to reverse when the attacker is lagging your six. When this happens he has time to respond to any move you make.

The way I see it is you have two options

1. Use shallow dives and fly clean on the dive to gain energy and or seperation. Enough to force him nose down into a higher speed tail chase where you can put the brakes on BEFORE he does and bring it to close scissors or climb out to the top

2. Use the angle off your tail to create angles he can not follow. In lag pursuit the attacker is keeping an angle of your tail. You can use this given angle by increasing it with a nose down hard yoyo's bringing your nose up first. That is to yaw hard into nose down and then force a nose up by you reducing throttle and tork rolling.

Once go get into a position of equal angles...Notice I did not say energy....you have an escape.

Your escape should be designed to maximise speed...NOT altitude....use the speed to maneuver.

Any time an attacker is in lag pursuit he will be behind you in the speed curve. Meaning you can get it faster than he can. This translates into getting away for seperation or gaining angles via turn rate.

Angels are created by going faster or slower. If you are at the same speed angles can only be created by plane specific advantages such as roll rate or superior turn.

Angles are also created by the yoyo. The yoyo seems like just another ACM term. But it is the basis for nearly ALL angle fights. It is a simple basic maneuver everyone knows about but few actually use it correctly.

A yoyo is more than a way to get a gun solution. If you think ahead a little you can use the angels created to maneuver into nose down or up and force the attacker to respond to you.

Often this allows you to retain your energy and pick the right time to go for gun or saddle.








Offline mechanic

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Re: barrel roll defense
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2009, 09:31:53 PM »
Hey Ardy, decide if you are going to try and make a snapshot or if you are going to try and bait them into equalising E state enough for a chase shot.

1) the snapshot - it doesnt matter if you lose too much E, all you must focus on is hitting the snapshot and reseting. Sounds like what you describe, maybe your gunnery technique is letting you down there? Fire earlier than you expect, especialy on inverted shots. This kind of tactic works well if you are running for home low on the deck and spit16 dives down on your 109G14. You cannot escape running, you must fight. You do one move in defence, one snapshot, then dive and try to get away from them before they turn back around on you and realise what happened to their easy kill.

2) the bait reversal - it's dangerous, there's nothign else to say. You are basically assuming the enmy is less competent than yourself to even try this move. Still it is very effective even with equal players if the attacker is careless for a moment. The trick is in keeping enough speed to match the attacker. You need to drag them vertically down for some time to stand a chance of equalising energy with them. You usualy have to let them have a shot to draw them in close enough for you to chase them back up. You must dump just enough E to avoid being shot but not so much that you are in the same possition. It's a game of two pilots, so never can be a flawless tactic.

I'm not saying you can only go for one or the other, but I think it's important to have a clear picture of what you intend to do. Say if there are alot of enemy flying near you would be only wanting to gain a snapshot, then keep your speed and reset your SA. Or you may be sure it is a 1 on 1 situation and then will not blow excessive E or waste angles to gain that snapshot, playing for he bigger picture of E equalisation. Or you may find that you can do both at the same time. All I'm saying is be definite with your move intentions, even though you may find that this attacker has just got your number today whatever you did. After all, they do star with all the cards, and not everyone attacks like a fool.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 09:33:58 PM by mechanic »
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