Author Topic: Turning point of the War.  (Read 5926 times)

Offline oakranger

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #120 on: November 11, 2009, 02:25:40 AM »
OK, but how were the spanish in the way? Or did he mean the french?

He may be talking about the fact that Spain was just sitting there doing nothing. 
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Offline Angus

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #121 on: November 11, 2009, 04:09:18 AM »
You have a good point there angus. But how were the british in the way? AND the Spanish?

The British were in the way by simply being at war with Germany. And at the turning point of the war, when the Axis got stopped and started retreating, the British were in the way by holding Egypt and some other parts of N-Africa, as well as the key issue, Gibraltar. And on top of that, while Stalingrad was still an uncertain outcome, the W-Allies launched an advance on a 2.500 miles front, in N-Africa.

- Just "being at war with Germany" meant that the Axis invasion of Russia had to be planned differently, it also meant that an uncomfortable amount of manpower had to be tied up, and it absolutely meant that the force was weaker. Did you know that the LW lost more aircraft from 1940 to 1941 to the British than to the Russians in the "hottest" year of 1941?
- Just holding Gibraltar meant that the axis could not go in and out the med. There was still quite some naval power of the Italians trapped in the med, but the British gave them a beating. There was also some naval power belonging to the Vichy French, but the British also gave them a (very unpopular) beating.
- The Desert war, starting in 1940 may not look big on the scale of the Russian war, but it did drain the Axis quite a bit. They needed some resources, - armour, fuel, transports, navy, and a whole load of troops.
- Holding on in the area meant that the Bosphorus was closed. The Turks had the key there, and while being cautious in world politics, they were relatively pro Axis. That leads us to.....
- Gallipoli. The hideous WWI battle fought between the Commonwealth and the Turks was all about holding both sides of the Bosphorus to enable a naval connection (be it gunpower or supplies/troops) if needed.....which it definately was.
- Operation Torch, - the allied advance in N-Africa started in November 1942. When the Germans thought they were easily winning at Stalingrad. Hitler referred to it as basically won. But this time he got a sudden secondary front. Quite a bit of air power immediately was transferred from Stalingrad to the med. I have often wondered about the timing of those events.

And the Spanish.....simple.
Hitler realized the importance of the med before invading Russia, he met Franco in Spain in 1940 about the issue. Hitler needed the Spanish co-operation to seize Gibraltar. He did not have naval power enough to catch it from the sea, so it would have to be done from the mainland. So he asked for permission and transport. (The Spanish rail system has it's own trackwidth, - something that also bothered the Germans in Russia).
Franco basically declined. In a cunning political manner, he made ridiculous counter-demands which upon Hitler could not agree. No-deal, and Spain was at peace  :devil

BTW, this is probably already all on this particular thread.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Nemisis

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #122 on: November 11, 2009, 11:50:46 AM »
Ok, thanks. Thats pretty well covered. I just expected an "The were holding the mediteranian" type answer.
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Offline Angus

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #123 on: November 13, 2009, 04:59:24 AM »
You're welcome. ;)
Actually, studying maps will give one many an idea. Google earth is my friend in this ;)I have a good book as well, - the atlas of WW2. Sort of brings one into the logistics involved.
The med campaign was actually an incredible feat for the British. They had to cover some serious distance on sea to keep their strongholds, while for the Axis it was pretty short from Italy down to N-Africa.
On the flip-side, the Germans had to face a huge logistics problem in Russia. The mud, the frost, the rail tracks (different from W-Europe), the bad roads, and the Russian held waterways. The German "southern-swing" in the Russian campaign was a logistics nightmare, - but Guderian, although convinced about the folly of the shift of operation, - had a remarkable success.
So, no wonder Hitler at least thought about the issue of opening up to the black sea. And him being a land-minded person, - heck, - he probably didn't even get the idea himself.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Simba

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #124 on: November 13, 2009, 02:28:57 PM »
Hitler visited Franco to discuss what Spain could do to aid Germany. Franco haggled and bargained in his high-pitched voice for whatever he could get without committing Spain to anything. When Hitler got home he said that the talks with Franco had been 'worse than having a tooth pulled by the dentist'.

One nasty git talking to another. I'd have loved to have been a fly on that wall.

 :cool:
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Offline Nemisis

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #125 on: November 13, 2009, 10:16:28 PM »
Not much is heard about spain. Unless I completly miss my guess, had hitler decided it was worth it to attack spain, I would give them about a month, not counting if they pulled up into the mountians.
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Offline Angus

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #126 on: November 14, 2009, 10:09:03 AM »
Franco's Spain came to power with Hitler's aid. It was a Fascist state. So, it was quite a shock to Hitler to have Franco making surrealistic demands if they were to join and Hitler to get Gibraltar. Basically Franco was not that stupid, - he got Spain out of the carnage of WW2, sat on his throne until the 1970's, and even Hitler came back from him with no success....

It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Motherland

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #127 on: November 14, 2009, 01:26:52 PM »
Not much is heard about spain. Unless I completly miss my guess, had hitler decided it was worth it to attack spain, I would give them about a month, not counting if they pulled up into the mountians.
That's like saying 'had Hitler decided it was worth it to attack Italy' or 'had Churchill decided it was worth it to attack France', it's pretty moot. Germany was responsible for the Government in Spain, as it had supported Franco's Nationalists in the Spanish Civil War. Spain was a supporter of Germany. Germany simply would not have made war with them.

Offline Angus

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #128 on: November 15, 2009, 07:31:13 AM »
Capturing Spain would also not have been any small deal. It's quite a chunk of land after all, and ruled by a fellow Fascist that Hitler helped to gain power.
Look at one thing that baffles me though. Franco made some crazy claims if Hitler were to get Gibraltar with his aid. It was a matter of a deal basically. While Hitler could easily have said yes and okay to this and betrayed Franco afterwards, he chose not to do so. He certainly double-crossed things of that size, both before and after, so why not this time?
I'd put my money of him being overconfident in his army beating the USSR from the North, and him being not much of a navally concious person rather than playing a gentleman to a fellow fascist.
As before, I belive that with Gibraltar in his hands, Hitler would have won the N-African theater of operations and being able to launch operation Barbarossa from the Black sea, thereby starving N-Russia from the very start.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline 321BAR

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #129 on: November 15, 2009, 06:26:55 PM »
may have been a huge chunk of land but you gotta think that Spain just went through a major civil war and the winning party lead by Franco was backed my Hitler... he wasnt gonna touch Spain
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Offline Simba

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #130 on: November 15, 2009, 08:26:36 PM »
"Franco's Spain came to power with Hitler's aid."

Yes indeed. It was German Ju52s that shipped Franco's Spanish Legion across from Morocco. And Franco would've remained stuck in the Canary Islands if it hadn't been for British fascist-admirers who paid for a Dragon Rapide of Olley's Air Services to fly there, pick him up and drop him off to organise his ex-command into that invasion force (the aircraft's now exhibited in a museum in Madrid). The Royal Navy didn't exactly cover itself with glory either, transmitting Republican shipping information in the clear from Gibraltar to aid the Nationalistas.

The right-wing gang in Spain are now trying to obstruct the search for Franco's victims. To blazes with all fascists. I've got a li'l casa in Valencia and I'll be visiting the records of the International Brigade in Albacete over Christmas to see my great-uncle Harry Campbell's details; he served with the IB as a medic, then with the Republican Army until wounded at the Battle of the Ebro.

:salute

 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 08:51:09 PM by Simba »
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Offline Angus

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #131 on: November 16, 2009, 02:48:31 AM »
The Gerries did much much more. They sent troops, Panzers and quite some air support. The Italians also sent troops and air support. It was after all their practice ground for what was to come...
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline indy007

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #132 on: November 16, 2009, 10:42:47 AM »
WW2 in Europe was decided at Dunkirk, when the Germans failed to capture the Brit army and lost any chance at a cross channel invasion of a barely target.

WW2 in the Pacific was decided at Pearl Harbor, when the Japanese forgot to blow up the fuel tank farms which fed our fleets and let us reinforce our front.

Offline 321BAR

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #133 on: November 16, 2009, 01:58:37 PM »
WW2 in Europe was decided at Dunkirk, when the Germans failed to capture the Brit army and lost any chance at a cross channel invasion of a barely target.

WW2 in the Pacific was decided at Pearl Harbor, when the Japanese forgot to blow up the fuel tank farms which fed our fleets and let us reinforce our front.
dunkirk and pearl? umm...sorry but i think you need to read up more. banana :banana: banana
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Offline fudgums

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Re: Turning point of the War.
« Reply #134 on: November 16, 2009, 02:04:10 PM »
Read up on history? Dunkirk is defiantly arguble and pearl is what most everyone says...
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