Bomber Guns

[Bronk]

No, I am not wrong.

Even though bomber guns' best convergent area is a range of d500 from the gunner's position, the guns themselves, due to the bombers' unhistoric level speeds, extend well past 1.5k behind the bomber formation, and can (and do) kill/disable at this range.


Historic ranges were about 300 yards for bomber gunners... Outside of that they had no chance of hitting and didn't fire.

Consider that cannon-armed LW planes were able to attack the bomber formations from "outside" the defensive gun range. This game has it all bass ackwards.

Just admit you exagerted on the distance of the lazer accuracy. It's hyperbloe, it's obviously hyperbole you know you have no numbers.

[Anaxogoras]

thunderegg, drone guns default to a shorter convergence than where you were firing.  I can be good to wait until the bad guy is closer before you open up with all of them.

Krusty wasn't exaggerating about speed at altitude:



I'm not so sure about defensive gun accuracy.  Some of the inaccuracy we experience in the game is due to the imprecision of our aiming devices (joysticks), but some is also due to genuine dispersion.

And this point is most certainly dubious:

Consider that cannon-armed LW planes were able to attack the bomber formations from "outside" the defensive gun range. This game has it all bass ackwards.

[thndregg]

Those clips were taken from a film where I opened up on the guy at 1K out (the hash mark below center). This particular 190 was doing the "noob" thing of flying at my level-six, so I waited until he met the 1K mark with 50cal. I have a bad habit of forgetting to just fire my lead's guns instead of all three planes. He went down in just a few seconds.

[Lusche]

Consider that cannon-armed LW planes were able to attack the bomber formations from "outside" the defensive gun range. This game has it all bass ackwards.

No they weren't.

Rockets like the WGR21 or later the R4M were part of the quest to find a weapon that finally could be fired outside the bombers defensive gun range (so were the 5cm guns experiment on the Me 410 and Me 262)

[blkmgc]

I think its funny that the ones whining about the bomber guns probably couldnt hit the broadside of a mountain with one at d.3.

When you consider what it takes to have to jump back and forth from the pilots position , to a limited view gun position (meaning that most times you have to again jump positions to save your ass) and try and stay in formation when defending yourself against a single seater with the cross hairs in your face 100% of the time....its a laughable complaint.

There are plenty in this game that can regularly take apart bombers with little or no damage. Seek them out , and ask for training or head to the training arena with a trainer. But please stop asking for free bomber kills from the mid air refuel position.

[BnZs]

I think its funny that the ones whining about the bomber guns probably couldnt hit the broadside of a mountain with one at d.3.

Some guy who just came from HALO can shoot the bullseye out of the target D800 from a bomber gun position. Much easier than aiming one's "flying guns" on a fighter. If you have a decent joystick setup putting your fire on your aimpoint is not much harder than pointing and clicking with a mouse. If you don't have a decent joystick setup, its still not terribly difficult, while trying to hit things in a fighter will be a bouncy nightmare.

When you consider what it takes to have to jump back and forth from the pilots position , to a limited view gun position

Limited views eh? Let me tell you about something called F3 view...it'll change our life.

(meaning that most times you have to again jump positions to save your ass) and try and stay in formation when defending yourself against a single seater with the cross hairs in your face 100% of the time....its a laughable complaint.

Um, hit the X key allright? Now if those three buffs were being flown by three INDIVIDUALS I agree keeping a tight formation would be a worthy challenge.  

The more and more I think about it, the more I am against the formation. A player flying an interceptor mission doesn't get two drone fighters slaved to him a vic, a fighter pilot flying alone into enemy territory doesn't get an AI "wingman", a tanker doesn't get a slaved flak or two to protect him from air assault, so why do the buffs rate?

There are plenty in this game that can regularly take apart bombers with little or no damage. Seek them out , and ask for training or head to the training arena with a trainer. But please stop asking for free bomber kills from the mid air refuel position.

The tactic invariable used by bomber killing "experten" involves building a large E advantage, a pure vertical dive, and pinpoint cockpit shooting. (Unless its a B-24, then pinpoint wingroot shooting will get the job done) It is a very specialized tactic, not resembling what the Luftwaffe typically actually did, and actually requires more skill than the simple speed and flight geometry management required to close in to easy guns range and down fighters most of the time. More to the point, the time required to do this usually precludes pre-drop interception of the formation, unless the fighter pilot is loitering around at way above most of the fight waiting for buffs to appear or sores to develop on his bellybutton from chair time, whichever comes first. The buff formation has far more strategic power than any other equipment in the game, in its hangar dropping role. Dropping them AFTER they drop your hangars is beside the point, it only allows the pilot to return to the fight that much quicker.

 The Luftwaffe did both tail-chase and head-on attacks. While it was dangerous, I can see no evidence that the tail-on approach was the absolute suicide it is in the AH MA.

[Lusche]

Comparing real life combat results with AH combat results is always a difficult thing, because of the totally different combat environment and resulting difference in tactics - lot of them are resulting from having no fear of being killed at all.

But here's an onteresting comparison

The 2nd Schweinfurt raid, the "Black Thursday", the biggest slaughter of American Bomber forces by the Luftwaffe ended in 77 B-17s lost vs a loss 38 German fighters. That's a K/D of 0.49.
In AH, the B-17 has a K/D of ~0.35-0.49.

Despite having "lazer guns", "unrealistic high speed" and a claim that in RL "fighters could attack bombers from outside their defensive gun range"

A huge buff mission in AH will suffere comparable, if not worse losses than it's real life counterpart - see the nDGS scenario for example, where bombers were shot down in droves despite flying in compact formations at high altitudes.

I'm a dedicated buff hunter, but also spend quite some time in buffs myself each tour. In both roles, I do indeed see many fighters getting shot down by buffs. Almost every time it's just because they attacked mindlessly from 6 oclock, refusing even to spend just 1-2 minutes to get into an attack position.
When I'm flying a bomber and I see them crawling up my 6, I know I can blast them even tough I am a lousy buff gunner. If I see my enemy overtaking me and climbing above me, I know I'm dead.

Bombers in AH2 are dead meat on the table - unless you aren't willing to "work" for your kills in any way.

[BnZs]

Comparing real life combat results with AH combat results is always a difficult thing, because of the totally different combat environment and resulting difference in tactics - lot of them are resulting from having no fear of being killed at all.

But here's an onteresting comparison

The 2nd Schweinfurt raid, the "Black Thursday", the biggest slaughter of American Bomber forces by the Luftwaffe ended in 77 B-17s lost vs a loss 38 German fighters. That's a K/D of 0.49.
In AH, the B-17 has a K/D of ~0.35-0.49.

Those losses based on German or American claims?

Those losses all due to defensive fire from buffs, or operational and other causes?

If the "dedicated buff hunters" like yourself used the same tactics as the Luftwaffe did, (tail on or head on attacks) then the k/d for buffs in this game would probably be 1/1.

[Lusche]

Those losses based on German or American claims?

Neither. If it were based on claims, there number of "killed" German fighters would have been >150

[Lusche]

If the "dedicated buff hunters" like yourself used the same tactics as the Luftwaffe did, (tail on or head on attacks) then the k/d for buffs in this game would probably be 1/1.

I do use head on attacks occasionally, particularly at high altitudes. And even tail attacks sometimes. And my K/D is better than 1 when doing them.

[blkmgc]

Some guy who just came from HALO can shoot the bullseye out of the target D800 from a bomber gun position. Much easier than aiming one's "flying guns" on a fighter.

Do you not see the ridiculousness of this statement? Your telling me and all here that the gunnery is better (i.e. more K/d ratio , steadier ect) from a mounted bomber gun position than from a fighter? You really do need to see a trainer.
 

If you have a decent joystick setup putting your fire on your aimpoint is not much harder than pointing and clicking with a mouse. If you don't have a decent joystick setup, its still not terribly difficult, while trying to hit things in a fighter will be a bouncy nightmare.

Ok, so which is it ? Bouncy nightmare or point and click easy? You seem to have trouble making up your mind here.

Limited views eh? Let me tell you about something called F3 view...it'll change our life.

SooOOooo...hows your gunnery in a bombers gun position while in F3 view? ( see the silliness in this^ statement? )

Um, hit the X key allright? Now if those three buffs were being flown by three INDIVIDUALS I agree keeping a tight formation would be a worthy challenge.  

I can tell you have little bomber squad experience. i'll break it down for you to save you future embarrassment. Escorts are what saves a group ( <-please note, not singular) of bombers , not defensive guns. If the group becomes scattered, they almost always get taken apart. Again, I'd like to see you try to hold formation from the gunners position..aint happening.

The tactic invariable used by bomber killing "experten" involves building a large E advantage, a pure vertical dive, and pinpoint cockpit shooting. (Unless its a B-24, then pinpoint wingroot shooting will get the job done) It is a very specialized tactic, not resembling what the Luftwaffe typically actually did, and actually requires more skill than the simple speed and flight geometry management required to close in to easy guns range and down fighters most of the time.

Did you get the bolded info off of the history channel? There are some good reading references out there for this info.

More to the point, the time required to do this usually precludes pre-drop interception of the formation, unless the fighter pilot is loitering around at way above most of the fight waiting for buffs to appear or sores to develop on his bellybutton from chair time, whichever comes first.

The best will locate us and wait until our most vulnerable time , which is when we are about to drop. About %99.9 of all the rest will try to park on our rear flight deck like we are a KC-135.

The buff formation has far more strategic power than any other equipment in the game, in its hangar dropping role. Dropping them AFTER they drop your hangars is beside the point, it only allows the pilot to return to the fight that much quicker.

Cant comment really as I've yet to see a large group of bombers doing this. Mostly singles , which if defended against are easy prey. Guess they get luck when everyone is OTD mowing the grass. <shrug> Cant really say that dropping a hanger has anything to do with strategic value either.

 

The Luftwaffe did both tail-chase and head-on attacks. While it was dangerous, I can see no evidence that the tail-on approach was the absolute suicide it is in the AH MA.

Again, tons of great reference material out there.

[Rich46yo]

Knock it off Rich.  We don't need your straw-man attacks in the bbs.

No-one was talking to you boy. Mind your own business. Maybe you ought to ask the poster what he meant instead of, once again, telling the world what "others" meant. Seems the rest of the world was able to respond without being a jerk except for you.

I'll say again if you change one set of guns around you have to change them all. At most a bomber gun should have more recoil then a single 0.50, dbl 0.50, single 20mm, or the lesser guns...ect If you change them to historic levels then you have to change the PTs, the other planes, the GVs. And yes, "to the loud mouthed meddling little Tank Queen", you have to change the tank guns.

Boy the world is out to get you aint it kid? I wasnt even thinking about you or your precious little tanks when I first said that.

[L0nGb0w]

Some guy who just came from HALO can shoot the bullseye out of the target D800 from a bomber gun position. Much easier than aiming one's "flying guns" on a fighter. If you have a decent joystick setup putting your fire on your aimpoint is not much harder than pointing and clicking with a mouse. If you don't have a decent joystick setup, its still not terribly difficult, while trying to hit things in a fighter will be a bouncy nightmare.

You can use your mouse to gun in bombers?  This was a big question for me in my first couple months and I understood it could not be done. 

[Karnak]

I will say, that if Krusty and BnZs got the changes they want implemented, bombers would be utterly helpless in the face of the fighter capabilities we have in AH.  Our toughest bomber, the B-17G, would probably be looking at a K/D ratio of ~0.05% and who wants to fly that?

[smoe]

Anyone know how many rounds per gun bombers actually carried on WWII missions? I swear from history accounts (books, documentary, etc.) the bombers only carried 100 rounds per gun. Obviously weight limitations were a factor and the crews could carry more if they wanted.