unlearning bad habits

[Getback]

How would you fight a spit16 at co-alt with an F6? I know looping isn't the answer and you can't run because they are faster.

[Ardy123]

I was replying how to fight zekes, which was oneof his concerns.  If I were in a hellcat and had to fight a 4-hog, I would dive to deck giving the hog my 6 from 1000 to 800 out, I would cut throttle and force an overshoot using angles, and blast him right in his sixspot!

ahh sorry, didn't realize I was hijacking the thread, only read your post & the thread title

[boomerlu]

How would you fight a spit16 at co-alt with an F6? I know looping isn't the answer and you can't run because they are faster.

Lead turn merge, try for the kill on the snapshot. If that doesn't work, you've probably gained enough angles that you can disengage.

[The Fugitive]

Lead turn merge, try for the kill on the snapshot. If that doesn't work, you've probably gained enough angles that you can disengage.

He asked how to FIGHT a spit16, not run away from one 

[boomerlu]

He asked how to FIGHT a spit16, not run away from one  

Yeah that's the first sentence I wrote - how to fight. If you can't get the first shot, your advantage in a Hellcat will erode very quickly, so it's best to disengage, all else equal.

The F6F can't win unless the Spit makes a mistake. The F6F's only advantage in a fight is its tighter turn radius with flaps (since the Spit can only drop FULL flaps as opposed to the Hellcat's incremental flaps) which it could use to force a nose-nose fight. However, with the Spit's superior thrust/weight, it can always use the vertical to get out of a turn radius fight and the Hellcat would not be able to follow.

The smartest thing to do is to go for the first shot and then disengage if you miss it. Only if you've gauged that the Spit has an inferior pilot do you press the fight.

[Anaxogoras]

Hard to disengage from a significantly faster aircraft...

[boomerlu]

Doing a proper lead turn merge, you should have gained enough angles that, if you fail to connect on the critical shot, it will take the Spit a long time to put his nose on you and initiate the chase. During this time, if you know to disengage, you should have a chance to get away.

[MajWoody]

If you can get the spit down to below about 230 you stand a good chance in an angles fight.

[humble]

Figured this is one post worth chipping in on since it's been running so long and has a lot of solid perspective from a variety of quality sources. From my past perspective here as a former trainer and my overall inclination to fly "lesser" planes like the SBD and A-20 with at least a modest level of success there are 3 area's of focus. This is not specific to "unlearning" as much as it is to refining your understanding of what works and why it works. There are no absolutes at the beginning of a "dogfight", that is no single "magic move" will earn you a victory. This is why most of the uber sticks could care less if someone has the "advantage" and even a somewhat less then uber stick like me is perfectly comfortable tooling around at 8k in an SBD. The guy who's going to kill me in that 12k spixteen will do so a majority of the time regardless of our initial position...just like the "average" spixteen driver will fall to my SBD more often then not.

So....

To be reasonably successful you need to have a solid grasp of the application of BFM in out of plane ACM. Dogfights are fought in 3 dimensions and guys like the ones mentioned in this thread are very good at manipulating and exploiting subtle variations in positioning. This is not uber pilot stuff or "on the edge" flying it's more like basic math for dogfighting. The potential range of motion for any plane is defined by its lift vector. No plane is ever capable of movement outside of this "funnel"...basically it can fly straight or it can turn in the direction thelift vector is pointing (dog house charts). The pilot can manipulate the direction his lift vector is facing (roll) and how big it is (throttle)...that's it. Good pilots manipulate the lift vector in response to both the enemy, the strength of the opponents plane and there perception of the enemies skill level.

All planes are equal across a % of their flight envelope, the good pilot seeks to maneuver to his advantage during this phase and to force the fight in a direction so that as the fight progresses he can exploit his planes advantage (often just momentarily) to seize control of the fight. We'll use the F6F as an example vs the spit. The 1st thing you need to understand is what potential advantage(s) you have and where the major problem is. The F6F has 3 major advantages and 1 disadvantage (again this is my opinion). 1st and foremost it has combat flaps which give it a significant edge thru parts of the flight envelope, 2nd it can bleed E faster and 3rd it has superior rudder/elevator authority at most combat speeds. On the flip side it won't climb as well, it also will not out accelerate or out turn the spitty (in the true sense of the term). So what does all this mean?

An F6F driver wants to fight the spitty in some type of a semi vertical rolling/slashback type of fight that exploits the advantages above. You'll never see an F6F driver of merit "chase" a plane like a spitfire UNLESS he is "in the donut". I've worked with a few of the guys who've posted here at one point or an other. You can view any plane as having a "donut" centered on top behind the cockpit. The faster the plane the bigger the donut, once you gain position in the other guys donut you have control of the fight unless he has enough E to just give you a fleeting shot. You can accomplish goal two ways, you can fly to the other guys donut...or he can bring his donut to you. Marks comments regarding the F6F is simply saying I'll set the guy up and he'll give me his donut. The F6F is one of (if not the best) "two way donut snatchers" in the game. Once you get a guy in position he rarely gets out since you can flap,rudder to match any turn and you can hose him out to 800+. So the F6 driver knows if he is a bit out of plane he can get slower quicker or keep his E looking for a quick chance to force a shot window or fly out of plane lag...all he needs to do is get the spit driver to pull hard and the fights over unless the F6 driver gets out piloted...basically the spit is about a 1-3 dog even up vs a decent F6F driver unless its a true spit ace (and there are some) in which case its all pilot skill.

I'll see if I have a clip here that makes sense as an illustration...

[lagger86]

  humble
 
 There is a lot of good info here. I started this thread in an attempt to receive some input from different people with their views on fighting in AH as opposed to mine.


Here is what I've learned

1. I have a lot to learn.
2. the AH community is very willing to help anyone if they ask.
3. I have a lot to learn.

 
Lagger

 
 

[boomerlu]

Humble, the problem with slowing down/blowing E is that if you do, you may gain a momentary shot. However, the Spit retains the option of going vertical having not blown his E, whereas you can't follow him.

That's the problem with any plane that attempts to force a turn radius fight if it doesn't have a turn rate advantage. Yes you CAN win, but it all relies on your opponent making the mistake of stepping inside your territory. If your opponent is smart, he'll drive for the shot while he has the advantage and then go vertical once he senses the scissors.

With a big climb rate advantage and more E (since you've just dumped it), he'll be able to outzoom you and thus win the turn radius battle. Once on top, he can do whatever he wants at will.

[grizz441]

Here's a film of me mixing it up completely outnumbered in the Ta152.  I inevitably get ganged at the end of the film which was my fault for not disengaging earlier but I was having fun and didn't care.  In any event, there's probably a lot to be taken from this film.  Enjoy.

http://dasmuppets.com/public/Grizz/Ta152 Fun.ahf

[humble]

humble
 
 There is a lot of good info here. I started this thread in an attempt to receive some input from different people with their views on fighting in AH as opposed to mine.


Here is what I've learned

1. I have a lot to learn.
2. the AH community is very willing to help anyone if they ask.
3. I have a lot to learn.

 
Lagger

 
 

Most of us (including me) have a lot to learn, more so we can all continue to refine our actual understanding of what we think we know. It's not "unlearning" as much as improved application of what we know in conjunction with "new tricks". Here are a few clips that might help you. Try and view them from the perspective of "in vs out of plane", "relative lift vectors" and "basic tactics"...they should help you get a better feel for some of the stuff I've talked about above....

Clip 1

As a trainer (speaking in past tense) one of hardest things to learn is finding a beginning point. Invariably the "problem" the student wants to work on has its roots somewhere else (normally very basic). Once you wind that weak link in the foundation then 85%+ of the time the light bulb just goes on and a quantum leap occurs. For me the best way to try and sort this out initially is just to have the guy/gal grab a favorite ride and an alt/E advantage and tell them to just kill me. The end result is normally about like this...a fight in the MA that I've had 500+ times in the TA over a decade or so...one of my few gripes with the current TA setting is the lack of damage. If you view my films you notice I often cut my "bait move" very close and absorb strikes but very little if any damage. I do believe this is a learned skill that was helped refined by hundreds of hours flying as a "target drone" back as a trainer. To me I think that as a pure training clip this is the best I ever shot with regard to in/out of plane and lag to lead transitions. I'm never really in control of this fight but can keep the illusion of control enough to "force" errors. None of the shots are forced and I don't waste any E or give up any angular position. wish I could still fly this well:)
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/P40vN1ki.ahf    

Clip 2

This a good general primer of "common envelope" flying. within a significant % of the flight envelope all planes are similar. There is absolutely nothing at all fancy here or plane specific. To consistently achieve victories and return successfully you have 90% fundamentals and 10% "pilot stuff"...anytime you try pushing it 90/10 the other way you walk home. Again the key here is the overall texture and management of the fight.
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/prowling%20A-20.ahf    

Here is a clip from frame#1 of current scenario, if you look toward the end I'm being chased by 3 190's and have a flight of 3 friendlies inbound. You can see that I turn and engage prior to there arrival to get things furballing for them. whats important here is my timing and choice of lines in reaction to how they set up. Was nice flying right up until I lost SA/focus trying to check in and pat myself on the back for some nice flying
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/Frame%201%20fun.ahf  

Clip 3

This a clip of me in the SBD, in the end my poor gunnery does me in but it gives you a feel for how competative the plane can be vs a fighter (or two). Normally i'd have gotten both of these with little problem...
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/SBD.ahf    

Here is a similar clip in A-20
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/a20and2spits.ahf  

The only way to get "good" in any plane is to push yourself in it, I'm always looking for good fights vs excellent sticks in "their ride". Here is one of slap slapping me around in the A-20. We had 3 or 4 and he swept me easily, this is the closest of them...but all were fun and this type of action makes a similiar fight vs a lesser stick a lot more winnable IMO.
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/a20and2spits.ahf  

Here are a couple of fights, 1st I happened to have an initial advantage...which led to a bit of an exchange afterward so I invited him to come on back....which he did...2nd fight was a lot of fun...
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/grmrpr1.ahf  
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/grmrpr2.ahf  

Other clips at az-dsl.com/snaphook

Feel free to browse about

[humble]

Humble, the problem with slowing down/blowing E is that if you do, you may gain a momentary shot. However, the Spit retains the option of going vertical having not blown his E, whereas you can't follow him.

That's the problem with any plane that attempts to force a turn radius fight if it doesn't have a turn rate advantage. Yes you CAN win, but it all relies on your opponent making the mistake of stepping inside your territory. If your opponent is smart, he'll drive for the shot while he has the advantage and then go vertical once he senses the scissors.

With a big climb rate advantage and more E (since you've just dumped it), he'll be able to outzoom you and thus win the turn radius battle. Once on top, he can do whatever he wants at will.

Your making a lot of assumptions about what he can or can't do and what I will or will not allow him to do. You missed a key aspect of my comment I do not need to slow down or bleed E. I already have that advantage built in and to not need to artificially enhance it. Since I could care less if the spit has alt E or both it really doesn't matter if he "retains" any option other then the option to get shot down. The moment any pilot thinks in terms of a "turn radius fight" he's dead meat most of the time since very few good sticks ever fly that basic a fight. Basically your describing a "stick to belly" flyer type mentality....exactly what I want to see. Basically what your describing is the fight I want and the one the spit can't ever win...

[TequilaChaser]

some of you posted, sucker the SpitXVI or the SpitIX into a scissors fight.......... I would not give into this type of maneuvering to early....Scissoring is a defensive tactic normally saved as a last ditch effort because you made a mistake earlier......

however we all have used it as a decoy to show our "6" to the bandit and sucker them in to fighting, I do not recommend using it unless you have nothing else in your bag to pull out....

next, some here have posted some good info, but to reply on what 1 or 2 others mentioned....... I would not let myself get into a mental mindset of "hey he is in a spitfire, I am in an F6f5....so he can outturn me!" ....... just because a spitfire might be able to outturn or outclimb/out accelerate your F6f does not mean he can beat you 1 vs 1 in an angles fight....NOTICE - I said angles and not "Turn Fight"...... here we go back to that 3 deminsional view of a fight and angles means understanding geometry and flying "out of plane" maneuvers/turns.......a decent F6f pilot can turn with a spitfire easily and for sustained amounts of time if the F6f pilot uses out of plane turns against the spitfire who wants to "turn fight"....

and if the F6f flyer conciously practices their "E-Management" skills, then the F6f flyer does not have to give much worry or thought of the spitfire having a mere 5 mph speed advantage or 10 mph when the spit decides to go vertical........or if the SPitfire decides to break off and extend.......well this will play right into the hands of the F6f, if the Spitfire decides to dive out!.......the Hellcat can dive very well....btw noone mentioned this.....

Humble had some good tips on flying lag pursuit..... using lag & pure the F6f flyer can manage his E state, until it is time for him to capitalize on a crossing shot or if the spit messes up and gives the F6f, the spits cone( doughnut/funnel )........

boomerlu? can you explain what you was replying or quoting humble on in more detail? I can not figure out your reply to him???  TY sir

Never mind responding to my question, Boomerlu, Humble done replyed...... no worries