20 years on in Berlin

[KgB]

......The NATO that defeated the Soviets was made up of many western European Democracies. I was in Bulgaria back in '78 for a brief stopover.......

Well technically NATO didn't defeat Soviets, it was Gorbachev leadership that led to dissolution of Soviet Empire. It might've happened in near future but he certainly sped up the process.

[CAV]

Quote from: Rich46yo on Today at 04:10:22 PM

......The NATO that defeated the Soviets was made up of many western European Democracies. I was in Bulgaria back in '78 for a brief stopover.......


Well technically NATO didn't defeat Soviets, it was Gorbachev leadership that led to dissolution of Soviet Empire. It might've happened in near future but he certainly sped up the process.

Without Ronald Reagan's leadership in the west.... would have the USSR fallen? I don't Gorbachev got up one day and said " OH My God! We are the Bad guys!" Odds are it was more along the lines of.... He's looking out the window at Moscow, Thinking that "SOB" in the White House is going to make this all a glass parking lot someday if I don't do something.

Cavalry

[Anaxogoras]

...and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

[Motherland]

I think that the most obvious answer is that after 50+ years of dealing with it that people in Eastern Europe and the USSR finally came to accept that Communism is one of the most oppressive and tyrannical systems imposed on modern society, bringing about peaceful (and not so peaceful) revolution throughout Europe. Reading about the atrocities and living conditions under Stalin and other Soviet regimes you get the idea that it would have been better to live under the Tsars.

I think it's kind of ironic that in mainstream America's seeming obsession with discrediting and attacking anything approaching any form of Socialism that this explanation is almost never brought up; it's always Ronald Reagan.

[mensa180]

I bet I could find someone from your generation who talks just as goofy... and you can be sure that bubi and enker understand the significance of the Wall.

We have a winner!

[Anaxogoras]

Reading about the atrocities and living conditions under Stalin and other Soviet regimes you get the idea that it would have been better to live under the Tsars.

Reading Dostoyevsky I'm always a bit wistful about the lost opportunity to spend vast sums of money on wild parties, vodka and caviar even though my rent was due a month ago.

[Tango]

Well technically NATO didn't defeat Soviets, it was Gorbachev leadership that led to dissolution of Soviet Empire. It might've happened in near future but he certainly sped up the process.

I'm sure that it had more to do with the fact that the US military was well prepared to take on the Soviets and they had too hard of a time trying to keep up. They were a third world nation with a first world military at the time the wall came down. They couldn't keep up and Gorbachev knew it.

[KgB]

I'm sure that it had more to do with the fact that the US military was well prepared to take on the Soviets and they had too hard of a time trying to keep up. They were a third world nation with a first world military at the time the wall came down. They couldn't keep up and Gorbachev knew it.

Mkay, Gorbachev new that USSR couldn't keep up with USA so he deliberately destroyed his own country?  You not making much sence.

[KgB]

Weird coincidence
When Gorbachev/Obama took over.

Years of war with Afghanistan.
Economy in poor shape.
Reforms in country.
Attempted to make friends all over the globe.
Nobel prize.....

"Gorbachev: Obama Needs to Start US Perestroika "
http://www.javno.com/en-world/gorbachev--obama-needs-to-start-us-perestroika_200512
Apparently ruining one country wasn't enough for him.

[Angus]

Did anyone mention the faltering USSR economy before the fall?
A faltering economy when there are countries and more countries being exploited,,,,well that's bad.
Now, the USA today has the same problem. Not quite paralell though, since the consumers have really been having an orgy compared to what the subjects of the Soviet empire generally had at the time.

[Masherbrum]

Without Ronald Reagan's leadership in the west.... would have the USSR fallen? I don't Gorbachev got up one day and said " OH My God! We are the Bad guys!" Odds are it was more along the lines of.... He's looking out the window at Moscow, Thinking that "SOB" in the White House is going to make this all a glass parking lot someday if I don't do something.

Cavalry

Yes.   

[Tango]

Mkay, Gorbachev new that USSR couldn't keep up with USA so he deliberately destroyed his own country?  You not making much sence.

Communism is what destroyed his country. I think that makes more *sense*. 

[Masherbrum]

Communism is what destroyed his country. I think that makes more *sense*. 

You're wrong.

[KgB]

You're wrong.

Thank you, i thought i was alone on this one

[TinmanX]

It always amazes me when folk come into a topic with the belief that they are the knowledgeable authority and then proceed to prove to the rest of us what ignorant fools they actually are without ever realising it themselves.