MiG-15 vs F9F Panther: was name this plane (13)

[Dmitry]

its getting interesting and even yet if possible more interesting. One thing I dont understand is why you Widewing ignoring my request? It is more or less simple I think. There are should be records of rescue operations I am sure of it. If so and I am correct than please post the number of rescued pilots in Korea and whats more important is where they have been rescued. That number whould speak for itself.
If for some reason you cant pull that kind of reasearch please let me know

<S>
BTW Boroda chity sources I got - it said Pepelyaev was Captain and then promoted to rank of LtCol   ohh well bad not to be at home  

------------------
Best regards
Dmitry aka vfGhosty

[Dinger]

Alexei, I can file an ILL request for the book and see if I can some library to send it to me.  Then I walk down to the copy shop.  I'll put it on my to-do list.

[Raubvogel]

Originally posted by Wisk:

The battle on Karelian Isthmus

                  In accordance with the Soviet data the Finnish side lost 362 aircraft, the losses of the
                  Soviet Union were 261 aircraft. But already in 1940 the Finnish VVS had 300 aircraft that
                  were mainly supplied by Britain and France.

Those numbers are false. Finland purchased or had donated no more than 134 planes during the Winter War. Only 93 of these were fighters that saw action. At their peak strength, the FAF had only 191 aircraft total, and that includes reconnaisance and cargo aircraft.

For the Winter War, the FAF had 190 confirmed kills which included 143 bombers, 37 fighters and 10 recon planes. Those are just the kills they confirmed.There were another 100 listed as probable. Which comes pretty close to your figure of 261 Soviet losses. The FAF lost 62 aircraft. These were 11 Fokker DXXIs, 17 Gladiators, 7 Fokker C Xs, 5 Blackburn Ripons, and 12 Blenheims. 47 of these losses were due to Soviet fire. 35 were downed by fighters, 8 by AA fire, and 4 for unknown reasons. The 62 also includes aircraft lost in transit.

So you're claiming that the Soviet Union shot down the entire Finnish Air Force twice during the Winter War of 1940?  

------------------
Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps

[Andy Bush]

All of this Russian openess has my heart a fluttering!

How about records from the 1967 and 1973 Arab-Israeli wars...got any Soviet kill numbers from those conflicts? How many Israeli fighters did the Soviets shoot down?

Just curious.

Andy

[Boroda]

Dinger, it's great! Are there any other books by the same author?

ftp://sky.chph.ras.ru/pub/uncheck/naboka.rtf

It's first 50 pages in Cyrillic RTF.

Hope Dmitry, Wisk and Lynx will enjoy it  

Have to go home now, hope to finish it before weekend.

------------------
With respect,
    Pavel Pavlov,
    Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

[Widewing]

 

Originally posted by -lynx-:

Let's see something beyond the wild claims. Let's see some REAL evidence.

With deepest respect Widewing - let's see yours? You made a claim about 8:1 kill ratio (OK, you didn't but you seem to rely on it's reliability) yet as evidence all you produced so far was a shot of a MiG trailing unidentified vapour. There's no hits, no visible damage... [/B]

I'm somewhat surprised that you would ask for evidence when the USAF never locked away its combat reports in a vault marked "SECRET" like the Soviets did. There are dozens of well researched books available in libraries and book stores that recount the events over the skies of Korea. Anyone with the desire can travel to Maxwell AFB and spend days, even weeks reviewing combat reports. There is no lack of documentation. I will grant you that most on this BBs do not ready access to most of this material, but that's not my problem, is it?
Fortunately, the USAF has digitized some of their publications and put them on a server where anyone can access them. Go to: http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/online/migalleysfbld.htm  and read the 'official condensed history of the FEAF over Korea.

Then, go to http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/online/WithinLimits.pdf  and read this document.

These are both produced by the USAF's history unit and represent the latest data on hand.

By the way, if a T-34, even a T-34/85, faced off with a Panther straight up, the T-34 is toast.

My regards,

Widewing

[Boroda]

Sable, you forget that F-86 was not hte only UN plane in Korea. Please add F-51, F-82, F-80, F-84, Panther, Meteor, RB-45, B-29 and other plane types that 64th IAK had pleasure to shoot down.

Also please note that MiGs never have an opportunity to vulch Sabres.  

------------------
With respect,
    Pavel Pavlov,
    Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

[Dinger]

Sorry Boroda, that's the only book by that author in this country.  Here's some other titles that the same subject heading brings up: two short texts (ca. 70 pages), and a schiffer pubs history.
Author:
                Abakumov, B. S.
           Title:
                V nebe Severnoi Korei / B.S. Abakumov.
       Published:
                [Kursk : Raduga, 1997].
 Physical Details:
                71 p. : ill. ; 21 cm.
        Version:

       Location:
                CSt-H, HOOVER, STACKS
        Call No.:
                DS919.7 .S65 A22 1997
     Cover Title:
                Neizvestnaia voina.
        Subjects:
                Korean War, 1950-1953--Participation, Russian.
                Korean War, 1950-1953--Aerial operations, Russian.
 LC Call Number:
                DS909.7.S65 A2 1997
         LCCN:
                99-178060
      Record ID:
                CSUXA4010982-B


   — Record 2 —
                     
         Author:
                Gagin, V.
           Title:
                Vozdushnaia voina v Koree : 1950-1953 g.g. / V.V. Gagin.
       Published:
                Voronezh : Poligraf, 1997.
 Physical Details:
                64 p. : ill. (some col.), map ; 29 cm.
        Version:

       Location:
                NjP, anxa
        Call No.:
                DS919.7.S65 G34 1997
        Subjects:
                Korean War, 1950-1953--Participation, Soviet.
                Korean War, 1950-1953--Aerial operations, Soviet.
                Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, Soviet.
                Airmen--Soviet Union--Biography.
 LC Call Number:
                DS919.7.S65 G34 1997
         LCCN:
                98-109140
          ISBN:
                5-221-00010-5
   Stock Number:
                ATA 2000 41
      Record ID:
                NJPGV3227401-B


    — Record 4 —
                     
          Author:
                  Seidl, Hans D.
            Title:
                  Stalin's eagles : an illustrated study of the Soviet aces of World War II and Korea / Hans D. Seidl ;
                  forewords by Günther Rall & Vitalij Popkov.
        Published:
                  Atglen, PA : Schiffer Pub., c1998.
   Physical Details:
                  368 p. : col. ill. ; 31 cm.
          Version:

         Location:
                  MH, Harvard Depository
         Call No.:
                  UG626 .S45 1998 F
 Other Information:
                  Consult Circ. Desk for HNMB3D
           Series:
                  Schiffer military history.
         Subjects:
                  Soviet Union. Raboche-Krest'ianskaia Krasnaia Armiia. Voenno-Vozdushnye Sily--Biography.
                  Fighter pilots--Soviet Union--Biography.
                  World War, 1939-1945--Aerial operations, Soviet.
                  Korean War, 1950-1953--Aerial operations, Soviet.
           Notes:
                  Includes bibliographical references (p. 350-351).
  LC Call Number:
                  UG626 .S45 1998
            DDC:
                  940.54/4947/0922 B
           LCCN:
                  98-84259
           ISBN:
                  0-7643-0476-3
       Record ID:
                  MAHGBNI31106-B

[Boroda]

Widewing, time zone difference is too big - but I think that everyone in this thread will be extremely interested if we can compare US and Soviet descriptions of the same fights. So far most of the US "combat records" that I have read make me laugh.

Sorry, but both links you posted don't work for me - maybe something wrong with my connection, but as you can see I still can post here.

------------------
With respect,
    Pavel Pavlov,
    Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

[Boroda]

Thanks Dinger! I'll browse through Russian online book stores. No need to say that I buy any book about Korean war if I see it in local book stores.

------------------
With respect,
    Pavel Pavlov,
    Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

[Raubvogel]

Widewing, those links cannot be accessed outside of the United States due to the .mil extension as far as I know.

------------------
Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps

[Widewing]

 

Originally posted by Dmitry:
its getting interesting and even yet if possible more interesting. One thing I dont understand is why you Widewing ignoring my request? It is more or less simple I think. There are should be records of rescue operations I am sure of it. If so and I am correct than please post the number of rescued pilots in Korea and whats more important is where they have been rescued. That number whould speak for itself.
If for some reason you cant pull that kind of reasearch please let me know

Dmitry, I do not have any data on rescued pilots, nor am I especially inclined to search for any either. It would prove nothing other than a pilot went down. It won't say why he went down. Engine failure? Fuel? Electrical failure? Ground fire? Air to air combat? Read the USAF documents I presented in a previous post and you'll see why search for such data would be a fruitless exercise, even if one were to find that data.

My regards,

Widewing


[This message has been edited by Widewing (edited 03-21-2001).]

[Nath-BDP]

 

The aerial combat on Khalkhin-Gol

In June of 1938, in a short period, VVS RKKA created the air supremacy in the battle on
Khalkhin-Gol. The Red Army was thus able to stop the Japanese aggression on Mongolia
and smash the ground forces of Japan. The fighters played a dominant role in the air war
on Khalkhin-Gol.
In accordance with the Soviet data in the battle of Khalkhin-Gol 589 Japanese
aircraft were shot down, 57 were destroyed on the ground. The war losses of the Red Army
Air Force were 207 aircraft.
The most successful Soviet fighters on Khalkhin-GOl were Nikolay Zherdev (11 victories), Mitrofan Noga (9 personal and 2 shared victories), Victor Rakhov (8 personal and 6 shared victories), Stepan Danilov (8 victories), Anton Yakimenko (7 victories).

Lol, the 207 aircraft lost for the Soviets is correct, however, the 589 you state for the IJAAF is the amount CLAIMEd by the Communists--in reality the Japanese only lost 162 aircraft.

[Widewing]

   

Originally posted by Raubvogel:
Widewing, those links cannot be accessed outside of the United States due to the .mil extension as far as I know.

I didn't consider that possibility. One document is in html format, so I'll paste it here. The other is a .pdf file. Perhaps I can upload a copy to my server. Here's the first document, it a long read:


MiG ALLEY
THE FIGHT FOR AIR SUPERIORITY
William T. Y'Blood

The fight for air superiority began the day the Korean War started and only ended with the armistice three years later. Once the shock of the North Korean's invasion wore off, it did not take long for the United States Air Force, assisted by other United Nations air forces, to destroy the North Korean Air Force. The arrival of the MiG-15 in November 1950, often flown by Soviet pilots, changed things considerably however. For the remainder of the war, bitterly contested air battles were fought almost daily. Yet despite a decided numerical superiority in jet fighters, the Communists were never able to gain air superiority, testament to the skill and training of the UN fighter pilots,primarily those U.S. Air Force airmen flying the magnificent F-86 Sabre......

In the interest of reducing download time, I've edited the balance of this post. See a previous post for the link to the article.

My regards,

Widewing




[This message has been edited by Widewing (edited 03-23-2001).]

[fd ski]

recently visited the museum in Dayton ( Dinger and Mx22 were both there with me ) there was a video tape on the mig vs sabre thingy...

it was so full of toejam that it made me wanna cry. 8 to 1 kill ratio superior pilots and whole 9 yards...  if the official AF museum puts this kids of BS out to the public, i wouldn't be suprized if they really believed in it themselves.


------------------
Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF

Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998

Northolt Wing Headquarters