Author Topic: MiG-15 vs F9F Panther: was name this plane (13)  (Read 7923 times)

Offline Raubvogel

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MiG-15 vs F9F Panther: was name this plane (13)
« Reply #90 on: March 23, 2001, 11:27:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by -lynx-:

Raub - I'm sorry to point this out but you did loose


Lynx, you can sit in front of your TV watching Baywatch, drinking a Coke and eating a Big Mac and think whatever you want. I was in Germany watching the Berlin Wall come down, I know who really came out on top when it was all said and done.




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Offline Sable

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MiG-15 vs F9F Panther: was name this plane (13)
« Reply #91 on: March 23, 2001, 11:53:00 AM »
The UN goal in the Korean war wasn't to conquer all of Korea in the name of Democracy!  They were trying to maintain the independence of South Korea, while avoiding a Nuclear conflict with China or the USSR, which they did.  South Korea is still an independant Democratic nation, enjoying the prosperity of capitalism.  North Korea is still an oppressed nation, and the majority of the population is impoverished or even starving.  Hmmm ... I wonder who won.

 
Quote
Originally posted by -lynx-:
Raub - I'm sorry to point this out but you did loose - Indochina is still under Communits rule (50 years on) with South Korea the only "non-communist" state there (it's not really "democratic", is it?) and we all know that if you guys went home tomorrow it would be overrun in a matter of minutes...    

As for "oppressive grasp" - it was far less noticeable in the Eastern block than it was inside the SU itself.
B]

Except when the Soviet tanks were rolling through your streets, putting down your uprisings ... but then that only happened once or twice.

You guys must be smokin some serious crack over there.

Sable
352nd FG

Offline Dmitry

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MiG-15 vs F9F Panther: was name this plane (13)
« Reply #92 on: March 23, 2001, 12:18:00 PM »
Ok guys it was fun as I said many times b4r. Now time to go on... another thread maybe? Anyhow I want to leave on the highest possible level of conduct... opps to late for that?? Hehe...
Keep enjoeing to spill as much dirt on post USSR as you can, dont want to stop ya and neither comment. Intelegent conversation with intelegent opponent that besides all can have a sence of humor is rare, but thanks god not in here  
So consider me officially off this thread, cya all in another war therad.

P.S. Boroda the book is readable to me, its in your thread I had problems... Switched to KOI-8 and was able than with Coder to decode... I agree 100%. I was saying than maybe would be better converting it into PDF and posting on some fast host maybe? I can do it since I know how bz you are.

P.P.S. From me and if I may from some more like me   <S> to Widewing


Dmitry is out...........

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Dmitry aka vfGhosty

Offline Boroda

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MiG-15 vs F9F Panther: was name this plane (13)
« Reply #93 on: March 23, 2001, 12:33:00 PM »
Sable, I live in the North of Moscow and my apartment windows look at the Leningrad highway.

In late 80s - early 90s I often was awakened at the time of dawn by the tank engines roar. It was funny time.

All arguments coming down to kindergarten level. "My brother is stronger then your dad!".

American: "You have no meat in your food stores!"
Russian: "And you opress blacks."
American: "You have no butter!"
Russian: "You keep Indians in reservations."
American: "And we, we can kidnap your Brezhnev!!!"
Russian: "Come on, you'll have no meat and butter too!".

Looks nice: political flame in an offtopic thread in a Vehicle forum!

Drinking my evening beer, waiting for other bright people to show up with their dusty mothballed opinions. Naturally having fun  


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    Pavel Pavlov,
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Offline batdog

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MiG-15 vs F9F Panther: was name this plane (13)
« Reply #94 on: March 23, 2001, 01:28:00 PM »
 Gents... the Cold War IS over. Right now we'd better damn well hope that our former Soviet foes end up with a stable democratic goverment (yes they have one now but I hope it stays that way..) and a strong healthy economy to go with it.

 Kill's, info etc are always going to be "wrong". Why because in the choas of war your alot more interested in keeping your bellybutton in one piece than worrying about if you got a kill. Lets move on and drink a cold one to each other and all those boys that bleed for the old men in the offices of power... personaly I think the powers that wanna go at eash other should send SOB's out that want the damn war so bad and let THEM go at each other with knifes.

  batdog
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

AKDejaVu

Offline Boroda

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MiG-15 vs F9F Panther: was name this plane (13)
« Reply #95 on: March 23, 2001, 01:59:00 PM »
Batdog, my hat off for you! Very well said!

BTW, I don't like current American politics, but I was in the US as an exchange student back in 1989, and I know that Americans are nice and friendly people, not much different from Russians or Ukrainians (hehe, I am half-Ukrainian).

Governments must burn in hell.

BTW, in Russian newsgroups anti-Russian opinions will meet a much worse opposition then I get here. That's why I like this board! People here are much more educated and friendly then average network characters.  

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Offline Andy Bush

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MiG-15 vs F9F Panther: was name this plane (13)
« Reply #96 on: March 23, 2001, 02:04:00 PM »
>>lol that is exactly what i said - loud and clear<<

Yes!! Now, the truth can be told! I saw it in a movie...OJ was in it...I guess he was going to look for the killers up there.

 

Andy

Offline fd ski

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MiG-15 vs F9F Panther: was name this plane (13)
« Reply #97 on: March 23, 2001, 02:18:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing:
Of course you see a lot of support for the MiGs. Take a look at who are defending the undefendable... Most are citizens of the Ukraine, Russia, Poland, or recently left their native country.

You sure as toejam don't look like an example of objectivism to me pal.

Stick your head back into the sand pal. And post your address, i'll send the historical documents about tomcats having 5 to 1 ration over Mig 28.



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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF

Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998

Northolt Wing Headquarters

Offline Sundog

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MiG-15 vs F9F Panther: was name this plane (13)
« Reply #98 on: March 23, 2001, 02:22:00 PM »
Does anyone know if manufacturing records for aircraft are available online? I would simply start with the number of aircraft built, how many were stationed where, and how many didn't make it back. That, at least, gets us in the ballpark.

Something I am surprised nobody mentioned is how many kills are claimed by two or more pilots (not that I mean both pilots shot down the same plane, but general fog of war type kills..Pilot A: I saw 26 planes and 8 went down; Pilot B I saw 18 planes and 10 went down) and then the intel guys trying to figure out how many were actually there and actually downed.

Dmitry: Of we course we couldn't landed on the moon! We would sink to deep in the cheese   . Besides, it's easier to just walk to the edge of the earth and jump down onto the moon then to fly up to it   . Aren;t all U.S. Test Pilots memebers of the Flat Earth Society? (Sorry that's another thread =-)

Great thread guys. A REAL discussion (not flame war)is always nice to see. <S!>




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Offline Widewing

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MiG-15 vs F9F Panther: was name this plane (13)
« Reply #99 on: March 23, 2001, 05:37:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by fd ski:
You sure as toejam don't look like an example of objectivism to me pal.

I see, and you are a paragon of neutrality, correct?

 
Quote

Stick your head back into the sand pal. And post your address, i'll send the historical documents about tomcats having 5 to 1 ration over Mig 28.

Hmmm.... I won't speculate where your head has most recently been, nor will I respond to your attempt at biting sarcasm. I will, however, request that if you have something to contribute, then do so at the same level of civility that has distinguished this discussion to date.

My regards,

Widewing

My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

funked

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MiG-15 vs F9F Panther: was name this plane (13)
« Reply #100 on: March 23, 2001, 05:43:00 PM »
 
Quote
...OJ was in it...I guess he was going to look for the killers up there.

LMAO!!! It all fits together now!!!

Offline Widewing

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MiG-15 vs F9F Panther: was name this plane (13)
« Reply #101 on: April 01, 2001, 10:39:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Dinger:
Hallion's text (The Naval Air War in Korea, 1983) adds some details:
The Oriskany had just come into the Korean War on Nov. 2, 1952.  The squadron was VF-781, the "Pacemakers", a reserve outfit, and the Oriskany was using the first F9F-5s in the theater (most of the others were -2s, the difference being mostly a bigger engine and a RR gunsight).

I have been doing some research on this event to get to the bottom of the story.

VF-781 only had six F9F-5 Panthers assigned to them. The balance of the Squadron was flying the F9F-2B. The major differences between the -2 and the -5 included increasing the length of the fuselage to accommodate the J-48 engine that made just over 7,000 lbs of thrust in afterburner. This is significantly higher than the 5,750 lbs of thrust powering the F9F-2 (J-42). With the greater power available, the -5 was about 40 mph faster than the -2 (up to about 585 mph at 5,000 ft). The vertical stabilizer was redesigned and notably taller. Other improvements were found in avionics, and the afore-mentioned radar ranging gunsight.

I have read Rowlands's account of the engagement, and it differs from what you have reported in the After Action Report.
Additionally, I have read John Bruning's work on the fight. Bruning interviewed both Middleton and Rowlands. Bruning's accessment credits Middleton and Williams with one kill each. Rowlands gets credit for one heavily damaged MiG, which by Rowlands's account was very badly shot up. Unfortunately, Rowlands was too busy dodging other MiGs to see if the
MiG went in or not. Hence, the damage claim only. Middleton remained in the area alone, flying circles above a Soviet pilot who had bailed out and landed in the Sea of Japan, about 80 miles south of Vladivostok. Finally, Middleton's fuel state required he head for the Oriskany. It is also reported that a slow moving contact was seen on radar
in the immediate area of the Soviet pilot. This is believed to be a Soviet search aircraft. However, it did not arrive until long after the Soviet pilot would have died from exposure.
 
Bruning concludes that the Soviets fired first, after Williams and Rowlands had avoided the first pass by the MiGs, and latched onto their tails. The second 4 MiG flight then executed a head-on pass with guns blazing. They missed. Williams then requested permission to return fire, and the battle was on. Rowlands apparently got into a Lufberry with several of the MiGs, after scoring with a long burst, which Rowlands last saw descending trailing heavy smoke. Williams shot another MiG to pieces, which was deemed to have crashed into the sea. About this time, Middleton arrived. He spotted Rowlands trying to shake off a MiG at
his six. Making a head-on pass, Middleton hit the MiG solidly and the pilot ejected. With that, the remaining MiGs retired. All three Americans returned to the Oriskany and landed safely. As you mentioned, Williams had taken some battle damage, which left him with trim control only of his rudder. He had taken two 23mm hits.

There's much more to the story, but I believe that we have managed to cover all of the important points.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Widewing

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MiG-15 vs F9F Panther: was name this plane (13)
« Reply #102 on: April 02, 2001, 02:18:00 PM »
For some additional insight into the air war over Korea, visit the URLs listed below. These pages are all on www.korean-war.com.  I am providing direct links rather than have you navigate the entire website.
 http://www.korean-war.com/AirChronology.html
 http://www.korean-war.com/sovietunion.html
 http://www.korean-war.com/ussraircombat.html
 http://www.korean-war.com/ussrairorderofbattle.html
 http://www.korean-war.com/USAirForce/usunairvictories.html
 http://www.korean-war.com/nokoreaairforce.html
 http://www.korean-war.com/DPRK.html

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Buzzbait

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MiG-15 vs F9F Panther: was name this plane (13)
« Reply #103 on: April 03, 2001, 12:58:00 AM »
S! all

Here is a post I made earlier re. German Losses on various Fronts during WWII.  It relates to the discussion here because you can compare the figures here to the claims by the Soviet Airforce at for example Kursk or other locations.  The material is rather detailed and requires some back and forthing comparing the various tables.

While the material here tends to confirm Soviet overclaiming in WWII, I don't nessesarily believe the figures given for U.S. losses in Korea.  In Vietnam a very large number of U.S. aircraft were essentially destroyed but were not reported as such simply because they made it back to base or crashlanded.  Additionally very large numbers of aircraft ditched in the Gulf of Tonkin.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Here are some figures on Aircraft and Pilot losses for the Luftwaffe. They come from “Luftwaffe” by Williamson Murray, a British author. His sources for the losses were the actual German records, not Allied or Soviet claims. “Luftwaffe” is one of the best analysis of why the Germans lost the war in the air which I have come across. I have had to take the Charts and tables which he has provided, which means in some cases all the figures I would be interested in were not available.

Total German Operational Strength May 1940 (Operational strength is the aircraft actually ready to fly, not including aircraft on the books but in repair or depots)

Fighters--------1369

Others----------4029

Total-----------5398


Total German Aircraft losses due to enemy action May-September 1940 (Invasion of France and Battle of Britain)

Fighters----------871

Others-----------1442

Total------------2313


Total German Fighter Pilot casualties. (Casualties include Deaths, Serious Woundings, and Captures. Fighter Pilot casualties are to be differentiated from Aircraft losses which can be replaced)

May-June 1940 (Battle of France)

169

July-September 1940 (Battle of Britain)

521

You will notice the big increase in German Pilot Casualties during the Battle of Britain. This was due to the fact they were flying over hostile territory at extreme range.


Total German Aircraft losses due to enemy action October-December 1940 (Night Blitz of Britain)

Fighters------40

Bombers------140


--------------------------------------


Total German Operational Strength January 1941

Fighters-------1339

Others---------3008

Total----------4347


Average German Operational Strength versus Soviet Union June-November 1941

Fighters-------738 (55% of Total Jan. Operational strength)

Other---------1724

Total---------2462 (57% of Total Jan. Operational strength)


Total German Aircraft Losses due to enemy action January-December 1941 (not including November, figures N/A)

Fighters-------868

Other---------1981

Total---------2849


Percentage of Total German Aircraft lost Monthly, All Fronts January-December 1941

January-----------2.6%

February----------3.6%

March-------------4.9%

April-------------7.2%

May---------------7.5%

June--------------11.6%

July--------------16.1%

August------------9.8%

September---------8.8%

October-----------7.7%

November----------6.5%

December----------7.1%


You can see from the above chart the German losses are quite small when their only active Front is the English Channel. Losses begin to rise in April with the Balkan Campaigns in Yugoslavia and Greece versus the British Expeditionary Forces there, as well as the commitment to North Africa with Rommel. The Germans had significant losses on Crete, especially in Transport and Bombers. With the invasion of the Soviet Union losses jump very significantly in the first few months. But after the Soviet airforce is to all intents destroyed, the losses begin to reduce again.


Percentage of Total German Fighter Aircraft lost Monthly, All Fronts January-December 1941

January----------2.1%

February---------3.6%

March------------4.7%

April------------6.4%

May--------------6.8%

June-------------14.2%

July-------------22.9%

August-----------13.4%

September--------12.6%

October----------6.0%

November---------N/A

December---------10.2%


This Chart shows the German Fighter losses with the invasion of the Soviet Union are proportionately a little higher than overall losses.
---------------------------------

German Operational Strength January 1942

Fighters--------1324

Other-----------3809

Total-----------5133


I do not have percentages of the Aircraft deployment by Front for 1942. However in November of 1941, Luftflotte 2, comprising approx. 600 aircraft was transferred to the Mediterranean to assist in the suppression of Malta.


German Monthly Aircraft Losses All Fronts January to May 1942.

January------------428

February-----------415

March--------------564

April--------------525

May----------------772


This Chart shows the heaviest losses begin March with the failed Counter-Offensive by the Soviets at Kharkov.


Total German Aircraft Losses January to May 1942

All Aircraft-------2704


Total German Monthly Aircraft Losses June to December 1942 by Front. All Aircraft


Month-----Eastern Front-----All other Fronts

June--------350-------------------299

July--------438-------------------386

August------436-------------------371

September---332-------------------206

October-----200-------------------324

November----224-------------------595

December----408-------------------366


This is my first Chart which shows the actual breakdown of losses by Front. You can see the losses on the Eastern Front are higher during the Summer ’42 offensive, but losses in the West are higher in October and November during the fighting at El Alamein and during the invasion of North Africa, “Torch”. Eastern Front losses then move ahead again during December when the foolishly ordered airlift to Stalingrad was at its height. There were significant Transport and Bomber losses at that time.


Total German Aircraft Losses June to December 1942 by Front


Eastern Front

All Aircraft--------2388

Other Fronts

All Aircraft--------2547


You can see from this, that the overall aircraft losses during the second half of ’42 begin to shift to the West.

--------------------------------------


German Operational Aircraft Strength February 1943

Fighters---------1360

Others-----------4014

Total------------5374


Distribution of Authorized German Fighter Strength January 1943 (note this is Authorized strength or Paper strength, not Operational strength)

Eastern Front----------445

Mediterranean----------280

Northwest Europe------1045


From this you can see 74% of German Fighter strength is cocentrated against the Western Allies.


German Monthly Aircraft Losses in 1943 by Front. First number is total Aircraft losses/Second number is Fighter losses

Month----Eastern----Med.------NWest Europe

Jan.-----482--85----282-124----176-87

Feb.-----318--63----206-89-----182-77

March----314-100----308-140----256-140

April----238-67-----572-247----256-143

May------331-110----333-97-----331-183

June-----249-85-----235-131----313-157

July-----558-201----711-246----526-335

August---472-150----321-133----625-248

Sept.----338-99-----503-167----522-276

Oct.-----279-94-----285-92-----530-281

Nov.-----194-45-----180-54-----529-281

December---------Not Available


In January the German losses are slightly higher on the Eastern Front than both the Mediterranean and Northwest Europe combined. This reflects the continued attempted airlift to Stalingrad. But after that, losses versus the Western Allies become much more significant. Losses are very high during the close of the Tunisian Campaign, especially during the abortive attempted Air Supply phase. Even during the Kursk Offensive and subsequent Soviet Counter-Offensive, the losses are less than those suffered during the Sicily invasion. Meanwhile as the 8th Air Force Bombing Offensive begins in July of ’43, the German losses in Northwest Europe begin to climb till they are largest portion of all losses. Notice especially the higher proportion of Fighters lost in Northwest Europe.


Total Aircraft Losses in 1943 by Front (excluding December)

Eastern Front

Fighters-------1099

Total----------3773

Mediterranean Front

Fighters-------1520

Total----------3936

Northwest Europe Front

Fighters-------2208

Total----------4246


Total German Aircraft losses inflicted in 1943, Western Allies vs Soviet Union

Western Allies-----------8182

Soviet Union-------------3773


German Monthly Fighter Pilot Casualties January to December 1943

January-----------137

February----------115

March-------------155

April-------------206

May---------------266

June--------------246

July--------------330

August------------333

September---------343

October-----------339

November----------245

December----------252


Of these casualties, the majority have been inflicted by the Western Allies.


Total German Operational Strength January 1944

Fighters----------1561

Others------------5180

Total-------------6741


Distribution of Authorized German Fighter Strength January 1944

Eastern Front----------425

Mediterranean----------365

Northwest Europe------1650


You can see from this 82% of German Fighter Strength is concentrated against the Western Allies at the start of 1944.


Unfortunately Murray’s book does not include figures which show losses by Front during 1944. However educated guesses can easily be made.


Total Monthly German Aircraft Losses January-May 1944. First number is total Aircraft losses/Second number is Fighter losses.


January------------991-473

February--------------N/A

March-------------1770-985

April-----------------N/A

May---------------1882-831


You can see the monthly losses are much higher than in earlier years.


Monthly Percentage of Total German Aircraft Strength Lost January-June 1944


January----------14.7%

February---------20.5%

March------------25.6%

April------------28.2%

May--------------27.8%

June-------------22.7%


Monthly Percentage of Total German Fighter Strength Lost January-June 1944


January----------30.3%

February---------33.8%

March------------56.4%

April------------43%

May--------------50.4%

June-------------48.3%


Since 82% of the German Fighter strength is concentrated against the Western Allies, the overwhelming majority of these casualties are likely inflicted by British or U.S. Pilots.


German Fighter Pilot Casualties January to May 1944

January-----------292

February----------434

March-------------511

April-------------447

May---------------578


Compare these Pilot losses with the previous tables showing Pilot losses during 1940 and 1943. You can see the attrition has become enormous.


Distribution of Authorized German Fighter Strength July 1944

Eastern Front------------------475

Balkans (Mediterranean)---------65

Northwest Europe---------------835


Compare this table with the Authorized German Fighter Strength in January 1944. You can see the Eastern Front totals are much the same. But the strength facing the Western Allies has shrunk to 45% of what it was in January. This reflects the tremendous losses in the Battle for Germany.


Jagdgeschwader 26 Pilot Casualties by Year. (JG26 were based in France and Germany versus the Western Allies. Sometimes called the Abbeville Boys)

1939----------2
1940---------51
1941---------64
1942---------69
1943--------149
1944--------249
1945--------110

You can see from this table that during the years when JG26 was only facing short range Spitfires and ineffective British medium bombers, it could pick its time to fight or not to fight, and so casualties were very low. But with the advent of the B-17 daylight offensive, and the nessesity to intercept these destructive and accurate formations, casualties skyrocket.

Average Newly Operational Pilot Training Hours Flight Time

Number before slash indicates hours on low performance training aircraft. Number after slash indicates training hours on first line aircraft.


Period-------German-----British------U.S.


1939-
Sept.‘42----240+/80+----200+/40+------N/A

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Buzzbait
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  posted 03-26-2001 06:20 PM                
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
S!
Couple other stats:

Total German Aircraft losses Jan.-June 1944

6259

Total German Fighter losses Jan.-June 1944

2855


Offline Buzzbait

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MiG-15 vs F9F Panther: was name this plane (13)
« Reply #104 on: April 03, 2001, 01:05:00 AM »
Here's that last table again.

>>>>>>>>>

Average Newly Operational Pilot Training Hours Flight Time

Number before slash indicates hours on low performance training aircraft. Number after slash indicates training hours on first line aircraft.


Period-------German-----British------U.S.


1939-
Sept.‘42----240+/80+----200+/40+------N/A

Oct 42-
June 43-----200+/40+----340+/75+----270+/70+

Jul 43-
June 44-----180+/20+----340+/80+---330+/130+

July 44-
End---------125+/15+----340+/90+---400+/150+