ok lets go step by step.
1. I don't want to spill everything in one post or even thread
2. I never did became angry with anybody, specially you Widewing - I have too much respect for you to get angry just like that
3. Gun cameras - surprise!!! Most if not all of the MiGs were equipped with one
In sight is F-86 S/N 49-1319 on the 6 Oct. 1951 Start range D.130 m end range d.122m. S/N 49-1319 shot down by Soviet Ace Popelyaev was the first Sabre that Soviets were able to capture. Due to 23 mm round that penetrated the fuselage behind the cockpit resulting malfunction of eject system US pilot was forced to ditch the plane...
4. Yes .50 is good - but not to MiG - if I am informed right Flang review posted one article with calculation that 1024 rounds of .50 cal necessary to kill MiG. I doubt that number but the fact is that many MiG pilots brought back their plane that was pounded with .50 and sustained no damage.
5. TY Dingy for pointing on the fact that not only Soviets but Chinese and Korean flew MiGs also. Not as it matters much but still makes me feel a little better.
6. As for numbers I have only one comment - I don't believe them - period. I am surprise you do Widewing. I am waiting maybe next 10 or maybe 20-30 who knows how freaking many years to see archives to become public. Until then - forget it. No anger but simple mistrust.
7. Just as USAF suffered greater losses in A2A due to strategy being used - but so did the Soviets. Not having a free maneuver and limited to only one approach to the landing field with your gears, flaps down and Sabre squad standing near waiting for that moment. It did happened and number of planes were lost due to such situation.
8. The scoring system for Soviet MiG fighters were build in such way that the gun camera film, by itself was not enough to claim a kill. Here is a little quote from a translation I made upon Funked request.
General of aviation Lobov:
We counted air victories not only by photos from a gun cameras. In addition to film it was necessary to attach report from search team, reports of all pilots presented in that fight and confirmation from a local law enforcement over which territory plane was shot down.
As an example of our scrupulous counting could be one episode. After air fight one of our bravest and skilled fighter pilots Captain G. Ges' had reported another aerial victory. From his own words he was firing from close distance and the foe blew up in front of him. Other pilots presented in this engagement confirmed his position. However the photos from gun camera couldn't compile with that. Due to high altitude fight lenses (glass?) have wept during a dive and all of the images became obscure.
Commanders of Captain G. Ges have believed him but did not reported a kill. Uncertainty was cleared by a mechanic of Captain's plane after inspection - G. Ges has brought home inside of his MiG's wing a part of Browning Colt MG belt from the plane he blew up.
We had all the reasons to rely on gun camera film alone. One of the reason was a punch of cannon's that MiG had carried. Indeed MiGs cannons had big destructive force - 2 seconds burst was delivering almost 14 kg (30+ pounds) of rounds. Those cannons could penetrate any armor on any of US planes and also could destroy armored protective fuel tanks. One or a few rounds that were delivered to a foe often resulted if not an instant death of a plane but a crash during rtb or landing. In our practice those planes that did not went down at the territory of engagement were considered them as damaged.
Completely different from our system USAF used only subjective opinion of a pilot backed up by a film, that has recorded multiple hits of .50 caliber.
Its obvious that an opinion of a pilot that is not backed up by other proof is not enough to consider a kill been made. In those cases it is possible to increase kills up to the limit of your fantasy. Everybody knows it from long time ago. But what about the film that recorded hits, even multiple hits to an enemy plane?
The thing is that MiG was extremely durable against .50 cal fire. Bulletproof windshield and 20 mm armored chair that .50 could not penetrate even on normal (90 degree). VK-1 engine also showed itself as being very durable. Self sealant tanks could seal multiple holes of .50 cal and provide a possibility to rtb or continue engagement. Without doubt film has recorded multiple hits to an enemy plane and USAF considered this plane to be downed or destroyed. More than that if more than one fighters were engaging such plane they all could claim a kill.
Planes that received more than 10 holes were quickly repaired and send into action again. In one of heavy engagement one MiG has sustained 120 holes but successfully rtbd and after repaire was send back.
9. Another thing for you to consider is how many US pilots were rescued. I don't want to quote any numbers. I just want you to find your source numbers and take a look at it. Next thing look were was the majority of US fighters rescued. At the sea or land?? that is very important since it will guide you in one direction. Soviet MiGs could go wet. They had to stay dry while all US and UN (note a separation between US and UN
) in trouble were trying to flee to the sea. See what you can dig up and if something please make a post.
10 Its bloody 1:30 am in here I better fly a sortie and go to bed.
P.S. Please no offence. If you feel so let me know and we will work it out. I think in any war there is no one that wins - we all lose, I hate war but I do admire my country and our planes: they are the BEST
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Best regards
Dmitry aka vfGhosty
[This message has been edited by Dmitry (edited 03-20-2001).]
