sustained turn rates

[niklas]

i tested sustained turn rates near the ground. All turns to the left, 100% fuel, standard weapon load. Elevator trim full up, rudder trim so that ball in the middle, ailleron trim adjusted that i only needed to pull on the stick.
Flaps one notch down for all usaaf-planes

During the test i made a quick look to speed and G-load, but these values are maybe not 100% correct.

A6M5  15.5sec   150mph@3.0G
N1K   17.5sec  155mph@2.8G

109F  19.0sec   180mph@2.8G
109G2 19.0sec   180mph@2.8G
109G6 19.5sec   180mph@2.8G
109G10 18.5sec  190mph@3.0G

190A5 21.5sec   180mph@2.7G
190A8 23.5sec   190mph@2.4G

Spit5  16.0sec  160mph@2.9G
Spit9  16.0sec  160mph@2.9G

mc202  18.0sec  160mph@2.7G
mc205  19.0sec  180mph@2.8G

F4U-1D 22.0sec  160mph@2,3G
F4U-1C 20.5sec  155mph@2.4G

La5FN  19.0sec  185Mph@2.8G
Yak    21.0sec  175Mph@2.6G

P38    18.5sec  180Mph@2.9G
P47D30 25.5sec  155Mph@2.0G
P47D25 26.0sec  175Mph@2.1G
P51    22.0sec  175Mph@2.4G

Typh   20.0sec  180Mph@2.7G

Note: The instant turnrates when i start from higher speeds are of course higher. Because all planes hold E much better now, the turnrates are usually better for a long time in a turnfight (not to mention less fuel load).



[This message has been edited by niklas (edited 09-18-2000).]

[funked]

Thanks!!!

[Vermillion]

Thanks Niklas, intersting information  

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[niklas]

a little note from me: I would propose for HTC to reduce Clmax. The turnrates are imo a bit too good for all planes. I have no problem when the spit turns 3sec faster, but i´d rather see a 21/18 ratio instead of a 19/16...  
It´s also interesting that the spit9 flies almost the same circle(radius) than the spit5. I expected a higher speed with more G-load, like the G10 compared to G2.

And add again much more torqueeffect in a slow flight.

Both will reduce also the unbelievable vertical performance of some planes. Endless Immelmann series from 150mph on, Outside Loops from 160mph speed in spits... i don´t know... (This has imo not much to do with E-retention btw)

[StSanta]

Niklas, interestng reading.

So, I guesI was NOT wrong when I said that a 109G10 outturned my 109F4 in a sustained turn FIGHT?

Something is a bit fishy here, but since it is LW planes, why bother?  .

Anyone got real life values for the 109's and 190's?

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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

[maik]

Thanks Niklas,

No difference between all 109's looks also a bit strange to me.

Can somebody explain the difference between the f4u's, just askin?

Maik
<JG54 Grünherz>

[LLv34_Camouflage]

Here's my post from the recent LA-5 performance thread, on the turn performance of the 109 G-2:

 

"A continuous 360 degree turn took 22 seconds at 360 km/h, with full throttle. Bank angle was 70 degrees and load 3 G's."

Additionally, Oleg Maddox tells that:

 

"18 sec for clean Bf-109G-2 is possible with the flaps on 10 degrees. I this case pilot has big g-forces overloading and usual full turn isn't possible - 109 had the "feature" to spin wihtout the "prevention"."

Here's the thread: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/000402.html

Camo

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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
 www.muodos.fi/LLv34

Brewster into AH!

"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."

[StSanta]

Well, something is wrong with the 109's if they have identical turn rate (almost), no?

HT, ya looking into it, or did nthey really have same sustained turn rate?

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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

[niklas]

StSanta this is only a little test! It is not 100% correct, the mistake can be very quickly 1 second.
For example i retested the 109F4 with mousecontrol. The advantage is that you don´t have to pull all time compared to a stick, thus you can fly a long time closer at the limit. The new turnrate was 18seconds ...

Don´t forget, the 109G10 is heavier, but it has a lot of power. It flies larger circles (look at the speed, 190Mph, compare it to a spit with only 160Mph) but this very fast. So turning inside an enemy should be a problem for a G10. On the other hand, there are so many other factors in a dogfight. Fuel load, weapon load, initial speed, skill... .
This test is only a valuation.
Btw i think HTC knows very well how their planes performs. I think they don´t even have to fly. They have access to the code, so a mouseclick and some additional routines calculate them with the current FM all data, max. climb speed, turn..... (at least i would give me such routines)

[Vermillion]

Your right Niklas, sustained turn tests are hard to do without error creeping into the results.

Back when the Yak-9U was released I did the same type tests for the Yak and the La5fn, and I had to do the tests many times and take averages due to the variability of the "human factor".

It looks like at least the VVS aircraft are pretty close to the test data I have seen.
-------AH----- Test Data
La5fn  19 secs  19 secs
Yak-9U 21 secs  20 secs



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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[leonid]

thanks, niklas.  btw, Yak-9U and Typhoon have opposite rotating engines, so for them sustained right turns will be faster for them.

[-lazs-]

well... everything turns better so the fights should be better overall.   The A5 outturns the Hog, P51 and p47 as does the tiffie?  the Spit 9 turns exactly the same as the Spit 5?

turn rates are better but comparitively... they are still strange to say the least.   Still.... overall, it should be more playable so I will give it a try.   Can't wait to see the Hellcat.   It should turn about the same as a Spit nine or a little better and the Hog should turn the same as a Hellcat if the hog uses one notch of flaps.   My guess is that the AH Hellcat will turn about exactly the same as the A5 making it just one more useless U.S. plane tho.   An A5 outurning a corsair and a p51 LOL..
lazs

[Karnak]

-lazs-,
Hawg out turns the Spitfire MkIX?
Hellcat out turns the Spitfire?

Supply some data please.


Spitfire MkIX will turn a larger, faster circle than the MkV.  It does this because its got more power.  Because it has to travel further, it ends up having the same time (roughly, this wasn't a 100% accurate test) as the Spit V.  The Spit V would, however, turn inside of the Spit IX.

Sisu
-Karnak

[funked]

Lazs check the turn radius.  Hogs will turn inside either 190 with ease.

BTW a Hellcat turning better than any Spit is pure flag-waving John Wayne fantasy.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 09-27-2000).]

[fd ski]

 

Originally posted by funked:
Lazs check the turn radius.  Hogs will turn inside either 190 with ease.

BTW a Hellcat turning better than any Spit is pure flag-waving John Wayne fantasy.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 09-27-2000).]

But mommy !!! Out of 15409 US NAvy pilots all of whom saw the painting of the stpifire, 97.8% stated that their hellcat turned better then spitfire on the painting !!!


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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF

Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998

Northolt Wing Headquarters