P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!

[eddiek]

P-47M performance was as follows:

Max speed: 470-480 mph @ 28,500 ft. Climb, at max. gross weight (including three 75 gallon drop tanks): 4.9 minutes to 15,000 feet at 2,600 rpm (1700 hp). Reportedly, the "M" could reach 20,000 feet in 5.7 minutes at military power (2,100 hp @ 2,800 rpm). 20,000 feet in 4.75 minutes in WEP (2,800 hp @ 2,800 rpm). This is with full internal fuel and ammo. No external stores or drop tanks. In other words, normal load, clean configuration.


This is from this website:http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/9485/P-47M.html

It gives reference to Warren Brodie's book, not sure if that book has info to support the above data.

[Vermillion]

Gripen, there were more P-47N's than there were Spit XIV's.  There were more P-47N's than Dora's and K4's combined.

They also flew alot of combat missions, and scored a very large number of air to air kills.

Like I said, look up the history of the P-47N before you judge my statements.

[Urchin]

I'd be all for the introduction of the P-47N.  Hell, introduce the M version to, that'll give you guys the 'hotrod' version to play around with.  

I'd say introduce the Spit XIV unperked as well, but since that would render the Jug and Pony (and Lightning) obsolete, as well as all the German planes, I supposed y'all wouldn't like that to much.  Well, you SAY you wouldn't care, but I think you'd change your mind once it got here.

[Karnak]

Verm,

I don't think that numbers mean significant.

That said, I don't think that the Spit XIV, G-10/K-4 or D-9 are really significant to the war either.  Simply due to their introduction date I think they are more significant than the P-47N, but that is not sayinging a lot.

How do we define "significant" in this context?  Numbers produced?  Changing the outcome of the war? Numbers that saw service? Number of enemy killed?

To be truly significant the aircraft would have had to change the outcome of the war, and how many aircraft can lay claim to that? None? One? A few?

Aircraft I think were significant in the closing year and a half of the war:

A6M series
B-17
B-24
B-29
Bf109G-6 series
F4U-1 series
F6F series
Fw190A series
Halifax
Il-2 series
Il-10 series
Ki-44 series
Ki-61 series
Ki-84 series
La-5FN
La-7
Lancaster
Mosquito NF varients
P-47D series
P-51D series
Pe-2 series
Typhoon MkIb
Yak-9U series

I think these aircraft were significant because they saw heavy use or had significant impact on operations, not because they did well against their adversaries.  You'll note that I don't see any Spitfire or German wonder weapon as significant in this time period.

[gripen]

Vermillion,
Well, actually I wondered your "late 1944" claim when there were no P-47Ns in combat areas and also that ETO stuff. But lets look at numbers.

P-47N
Something like 1800 built but just 4 fighter groups used it in combat (around 500 planes) and relatively short time of about 3 months.

Spitfire XIV
Something like 1000 built and I quess much more than 500 of these saw combat service during about a year of service.

Fw 190D-9
Something like 650 delivered (1500 numbers allocated) but nobody knows for sure. I quess around 500 of these saw combat service during 5-6 month period.

Bf 109K-4
Nobody knows exact amount of production but I quess something like 700 were delivered 1944 and over 1000 at 1945. I quess something like 1000 of these saw combat service during 5-6 month period.

Generally it is everybody's own opinion which plane is more signifiqant, but to my eyes the P-47N appears to be quite trivial plane if we look it's war time service. Well, it certainly saw more action than the P-47M.

BTW How many escort missions P-47Ns flew in combat? I saw a number but it sounded so low that I decided to ask confirmation...

gripen

[ 12-26-2001: Message edited by: gripen ]

[funkedup]

P-47N Ace:  http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/perdomo/perdomo.htm

[gripen]

Thanks Funked!
Well, sounds that the P-47N had something in common with the P-47M: "A total of 53 P-47’s from all three squadrons of the 507th were scheduled to participate, but after mechanical failures and aborts only 38 reached the target area."

gripen

[Vermillion]

Grippen, the numbers I have generally seen for the D9 and the K4, are about 700 total produced for each.

And I hope you don't honestly think that all of each aircraft type "saw combat" to the same standard that your using for the 47N.  Many many were destroyed on the ground, and the Germans had an overall low sortie rate due to an extreme lack of fuel and spare parts, plus very few trained pilots.

In the end section of America's Hundred Thousand there is a section that goes into some of the combat history of the P-47N. I would type it in, but I'm short on time. But I think I can say that it saw quite a bit of combat.

I guess my point is that many of the people on this board, think the war ended on VE day. It didn't by far. In fact the last several months of the war, were the bloodiest and costliest battles of the war for America. The Phillipines, Guam, Okinawa, and Iwo Jima, to just name a few. The war may have been a forgone conclusion in the larger scheme of things, but for people to insinuate that the combat service of the men and equipment of that period "didn't really count, because it was already over" is ludicrous. And if you think (in reference to everyone, not just Grippen) , that there weren't any Japanese planes left to shoot down, thats wrong too.

I'll leave this thread with just a few facts from a book I'm reading right now about Iwo Jima, called "Flags of Our Fathers".

The Marines fought in World War II for nearly 43 months. Yet in one month on Iwo Jima, one third of their total deaths occurred.

In the 1,364 days from Pearl Harbor to the Japanese surrender, with millions of Americans fighting on global battle fronts, only 353 Americans were awarded Medals of Honor, the nations highest decoration for Valor. Marines accounted for 84 of these decorations, with an astonishing 27 awarded for just one months action on Iwo Jima, a record unsurpassed by any battle in US history.

But that was just a battle of "only a month" against a defeated enemy, so it doesn't really count. Right?

[gripen]

Vermillion,
You can find several versions of the Bf 109K production numbers (as well as numbers for the Fw 190D-9) but all are mostly just estimates. Anyway, there were pretty certainly much more than 700 Bf 109Ks, even before 1945.

And I have NOT claimed that serious war was over after VE day but that the P-47N saw pretty short combat service (if compared to other three) and just four fighter groups used it in combat.

gripen

[eddiek]

Well, I am actually enjoying these replies.  Haven't seen the usual griping and whining.  The reference to "significance" is refreshing, although a bit misguided IMO.
Kinda hard to take those comments seriously when the posts above and below this thread are calling for the 109G14 and the 109K4, at least for me.
The significance issue is not all that relevant for me.  Why should it be, when the TA-152, which was made in ridiculously low numbers and of which few saw action, was rammed down our throats?  The P47M was produced in similiar or higher numbers, and was in the theater by D-Day 1944 from all I have read.  True, I only know of 3 squadrons that were outfitted with it, and true, it had mechanical problems, but so what?  HTC doesn't model in the "glitches" associated with the real life birds, or we would see N1K2's falling out of the sky due to engine failures, 109G's unexpectedly catching fire in flight to some problem with the engines, etc...
My opinion now, just as it was over a year ago when I brought up the subject of the M/N model Jugs, is the same.  Please model the plane, preferably the M.  Screw the short range, who needs long range in the MA anyhow?
And perk it, similiar cost as the Tempest or the F4U4.  Model the Spit14 while your doing it too......the RAF has long needed this plane.  While people have asked for it, detractors have claimed that it not be introduced, yet the same ones trying to keep it out of the arena at the same time clamor for added power and speed for their LW rides.  It's way past time for the double standards to stop.  
Just my $.02...........  

[Hristo]

Originally posted by eddiek:
 Why should it be, when the TA-152, which was made in ridiculously low numbers and of which few saw action, was rammed down our throats?

Hmm, I believe there was a pol started by Pyro on this. Ta 152 won quite a lot of votes.

Anyway, who cares about super Jugs when 262 is modeled ?  . I agree on Spit XIV part though.

[-ammo-]

From Warren Bodies book--

P-47M-
total of 130 built

PP- P&W r2800-14W/-57 with GE CH-5 Turbo-supercharger.

high speed 475 TAS at 28K

4.9 minutes to climb to 15K

combat range was 530 miles.

P-47N-

total of 1,946 built. All but 149 P-47N-20 were produced in 1944

PP- (same as P-47M, r2800-57)

Hi speed WEP- 467 TAS @ 32K
Hi speed WEP- 345 TAS @ 5K

climbrate 6.2 minutes to 15K.

combat range of 2190 miles

special notes for the M and N. It had a longer wing span than all other P-47 models. Wing span was 42' 6 13/16". All other P-47 models had a 40' 9" span. total wing area was 322 sq feet. For the N only-- M/T weight was 10,988 lbs. Normal weight, int fuiel was 13,823 lbs. with 2x300 gal ext's, 20,160 lbs.

roll rate was improved over all other P-47 models for the N. 98 degrees a second @ 300 mph.  the D28 which was the best in this category of performance prior to the N did 79 degrees a second @ 300 mph. Bodie also states that the N would turn with the D28, the best turning P-47 till that point.

The M or N would be a substantial increase in performance over either one of the P-47 models in AH.


V/R

ammo

[popeye]

Jug drivers should have a plane to spend their perkies on.

[Vector]

Originally posted by Buzzbait:
S!
Personally I think we need the Razorback with the paddle blade prop.  P-47D21 would do nicely.  This aircraft was crucial in WWII.

That sounds pretty cool too! I recall some topics on this boards about D-11 having a paddle blade prop IRL (retrofitted?)? Btw, how paddle blade prop differs from traditional one? Is there any good articles of jug's paddle plade prop on the net? Sorry for dragging this little offtopic...
Thx!

--------------------
vector
XO 348th FG "Kearby's Thunderbolts"

[Fariz]

At the moment USSR is represented in AH by 4 planes, Japan by 3. So, number of only jug variants = number of japanese planes. Seems unfair, is not it?

I hope M and N will not be modeled any soon, because its still zillion other planes which shall be modeled first. I find it really strange that AH still do not have, for example, Stuka in its hangars.