Author Topic: What Does this mean?  (Read 2629 times)

Offline thorsim

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Re: What Does this mean?
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2009, 03:26:03 PM »
Two engines. High efficiency airframe. High inertia. Efficient propellers. General engineering genius.

yea and prop hanging as described in this thread i as far as i know is reserved to "real" planes like this (which is nothing like a p-38) or RC aircraft ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fb91oekRqYU&feature=fvw

IMO it is very much a stretch to attribute "prop hanging" abilities as described to any of the hight performance fighters represented in this game and yes that would include the luftwaffe planes ACK ACK ...

if HTC has reduced that sort of ability for the planes ALL THE PLANES in the game then i say WTFG HTC ...
 
oh and btw he seems to manage his torque just fine without the counter rotating props ...

the maneuver looks like all BHP/weight and the ability of the prop to translate that BHP to effective thrust in this flight mode.  not at all attributes that were significantly superior in the p-38 relative to the other planes it fought with or against and compared to the extra 540/su31 and other planes that can prop hang is decidedly inferior ...



« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 03:29:41 PM by thorsim »
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Offline Motherland

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Re: What Does this mean?
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2009, 03:28:26 PM »
They're talking about an aircraft's ability to hang for a few moments at the end of a zoom climb, not to pitch up and hang on the prop for several seconds/minutes.
oh and btw he seems to manage his torque just fine without the counter rotating props ...
I'm not sure what type of engine is in that plane but I would imagine it's not 2,000+ horsepower.

Offline OOZ662

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Re: What Does this mean?
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2009, 03:29:26 PM »
They're talking about an aircraft's ability to hang for a few moments at the end of a zoom climb, not to pitch up and hang on the prop for several seconds/minutes.

Exactly.

Also, I didn't mention anything about counter-rotating propellers. You're just pulling from old conversations where you expect people to say certain things, so you can throw the same things back, I suppose.
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Offline thorsim

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Re: What Does this mean?
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2009, 03:54:03 PM »
a few moments is IMO a stretch, power/weight suggests that you would loose momentum and then immediately drop tail first to deal with that "stall" a situation where a neutral roll tendency might be problem not an advantage.

but hanging sorry not buying it,

ozz, ACK ACK said the thing about the counter rotating props i was replying to him,
about him thinking that what you described the first time was able to be done in the p38 in the real world ...
i did not mean that you thought this was possible i thought you were describing a game thing that HTC noted in their update.  ACK ACK seems to think such things are within the capabilities of the p38.

i disagreed ...

the video shows what i understood you to describe in your earlier post and is i suspect well beyond the capabilities of any of the real world fighters represented in the game.

it is hard to discuss things when i ask what someone means then disagree with them only for them to say oh that isn't what i meant ...

They're talking about an aircraft's ability to hang for a few moments at the end of a zoom climb, not to pitch up and hang on the prop for several seconds/minutes.I'm not sure what type of engine is in that plane but I would imagine it's not 2,000+ horsepower.

Exactly.

Also, I didn't mention anything about counter-rotating propellers. You're just pulling from old conversations where you expect people to say certain things, so you can throw the same things back, I suppose.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 03:56:32 PM by thorsim »
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: What Does this mean?
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2009, 06:52:04 PM »
This was the first thing I thought of when I saw 'hanging on the props"

I know it's a warbird pilot, but he's referencing his father's combat experience.  I'll find it from a combat 38 driver too, but this is the one I thought of first.


Qouting from the Jeff Ethell article in Flight Magazine, August 1997

"At 100 mph I could hang the P38 on it's props, feet on the floor and gently move the rudder slide side to side."


Also from the same article, talking about his father Erv Ethell, who flew combat in 38Fs in the MTO with the 14th FG and who was also a P38 instructor afterwards.

"Without much thought. I was entering his (Erv Ethell's) preferred combat maneuver; power up, I pictured a 109 on my tail and began and increasingly steep right handed climbing turn.  In turning and twisting with 109s and 190s, Dad never got a bullet hole in his P38F "Tangerine".  As the speed dropped below 150mph,I flipped the flap handle to the maneuver stop (which can be used up to 250mph) amd tightened the turn.  At this point, the 109 pilot, at full power with the right rudder all the way down, would have snap rolled into a vicious stall if he had chosen to follow.  I pulled the power back on the inside (right engine), pushed the power up on the outside (left) engine, shoved right rudder pedal, and the Lightning smoothly swapped ends.  Not only did it turn on a dime, but it rotated around it's central axis as if spinning on a pole running through the top of the canopy and out the bottom of the cockpit.  The maneuver was absolutely comfortable with no heavy G loading.  I threw the flap lever back to full up, evened the throttles and heading down going through 300mph in less time then it tals to tell it.  The 109 would have been a sitting duck."


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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: What Does this mean?
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2009, 07:06:48 PM »
That's a great article and the video that he made of that flight is also great and a must see for anyone wanting to learn the P-38.  IIRC, part of the video he made is a remake of the USAAF P-38 flight training film.  It's been a few years since I've watched the video, haven't had a VCR in like 10 years.


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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: What Does this mean?
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2009, 07:19:46 PM »
a few moments is IMO a stretch, power/weight suggests that you would loose momentum and then immediately drop tail first to deal with that "stall" a situation where a neutral roll tendency might be problem not an advantage.

The counter rotating props are not problem and do give the P-38 an edge in vertical maneuvers since there isn't any unnecessary energy loss due to the pilot countering the effects of torque.  One of the benefits of having a plane without engine torque I guess.

Quote
but hanging sorry not buying it,

ozz, ACK ACK said the thing about the counter rotating props i was replying to him,
about him thinking that what you described the first time was able to be done in the p38 in the real world ...
i did not mean that you thought this was possible i thought you were describing a game thing that HTC noted in their update.  ACK ACK seems to think such things are within the capabilities of the p38.

i disagreed ...

the video shows what i understood you to describe in your earlier post and is i suspect well beyond the capabilities of any of the real world fighters represented in the game.

it is hard to discuss things when i ask what someone means then disagree with them only for them to say oh that isn't what i meant ...


I think you may be taking "hanging on its props" to its literal meaning and thinking of those RC maneuvers were an RC plane can fly around like a helicopter while it hangs on its props.  Of course, I do not mean that at all, OZZ pretty much gave a pretty good explanation of what is meant by 'hanging on its props'.  Dan/Guppy35 also posted another good description from Jeff Ethell (who had many hours in a P-38 prior to his passing) in addition to his father's comments.  

Counter-rotating props, two powerful engines, zero torque, good energy retention, low stall speed and very gentle stall characteristics and stall recovery allowed the P-38 to hang on its props and excel in the vertical.  Sure, there are other things that contribute to the P-38s excellent vertical performance, those I listed are just the general attributes that made it possible in real life.

Care to provide data that shows contrary?  

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Offline Yeager

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Re: What Does this mean?
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2009, 07:31:27 PM »
When one says the P38 can hang on its props one IS NOT saying the P38 is a V22 tilt rotor, but rather that it can hang at the apex of a zoom climb for a short moment and still have this very stable behavior that makes it a dream to get pointed back down again, while the roped prey is 300 yards underneath flailing about like a fish out of water falling at 100 mph practically sitting there waiting for the P38 to zap it.
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Offline cactuskooler

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Re: What Does this mean?
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2009, 07:53:41 PM »
"Without much thought. I was entering his (Erv Ethell's) preferred combat maneuver; power up, I pictured a 109 on my tail and began and increasingly steep right handed climbing turn.  In turning and twisting with 109s and 190s, Dad never got a bullet hole in his P38F "Tangerine".  As the speed dropped below 150mph,I flipped the flap handle to the maneuver stop (which can be used up to 250mph) amd tightened the turn.  At this point, the 109 pilot, at full power with the right rudder all the way down, would have snap rolled into a vicious stall if he had chosen to follow.  I pulled the power back on the inside (right engine), pushed the power up on the outside (left) engine, shoved right rudder pedal, and the Lightning smoothly swapped ends.  Not only did it turn on a dime, but it rotated around it's central axis as if spinning on a pole running through the top of the canopy and out the bottom of the cockpit.  The maneuver was absolutely comfortable with no heavy G loading.  I threw the flap lever back to full up, evened the throttles and heading down going through 300mph in less time then it tals to tell it.  The 109 would have been a sitting duck."


I do this all the time in game. Very cool to hear it being done during the war.
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Offline thorsim

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Re: What Does this mean?
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2009, 04:58:04 PM »
that is all well and good, but ...

the posted account is not what was described as prop hanging earlier in this thread ...

climbing away from an e-enemy in a spiral against his prop torque was not a "special" 38 tactic the spits and 109s did it vs. each other throughout the war.  




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Offline Guppy35

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Re: What Does this mean?
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2009, 07:57:03 PM »
that is all well and good, but ...

the posted account is not what was described as prop hanging earlier in this thread ...

climbing away from an e-enemy in a spiral against his prop torque was not a "special" 38 tactic the spits and 109s did it vs. each other throughout the war.  


You are missing the point.  What is initially described is an abilty to hang on the props and not have it pull to one side due to torque.  As mentioned in what I quoted, the single engine bird would have stall spun from the torque.  In that regards the lack of torque was special to the 38 in combat.  Can't think of a single engine fighter where you could be hanging on the prop at 100mph moving rudder from side to side.

The second example was just one of how that twin engine, lack of torque could be used to an advantage in combat.

Frankly this just isn't that complicated.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: What Does this mean?
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2009, 08:07:39 PM »
that is all well and good, but ...

the posted account is not what was described as prop hanging earlier in this thread ...

climbing away from an e-enemy in a spiral against his prop torque was not a "special" 38 tactic the spits and 109s did it vs. each other throughout the war.  


The posted account of Jeff Ethell's ability to "At 100 mph I could hang the P38 on it's props, feet on the floor and gently move the rudder slide side to side.", is a perfect example of what we referring to when we say the P-38 was able to 'hang on its props'.  Can't really ask for a better example of the slow speed handling of the P-38 in the vertical when most other planes would have stalled out far sooner.

No one said the maneuver that Erv Ethell used to use was a 'special' P-38 tactic, we all know that spiral climb ropes are common, however, it was a maneuver that was successful by exploiting the better vertical performance of the P-38.  

Now, I have no clue as to what you think 'hanging on its props' mean but from everyone's post describing it, it appears that everyone else but you understands what it means.


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« Last Edit: December 05, 2009, 08:09:19 PM by Ack-Ack »
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: What Does this mean?
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2009, 09:40:56 PM »
Can't think of a single engine fighter where you could be hanging on the prop at 100mph moving rudder from side to side.

A real life Bf 109G has been described to be able to "hang on its prop" at low speeds with a high angle, not sure about the imaginary one though...
« Last Edit: December 05, 2009, 09:42:58 PM by Wmaker »
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Offline Stoney

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Re: What Does this mean?
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2009, 10:22:55 PM »
A real life Bf 109G has been described to be able to "hang on its prop" at low speeds with a high angle, not sure about the imaginary one though...

Ultimately, this term is one of the more subjective descriptors among aircraft.  Almost any aircraft with a high power loading can "hang" on its prop, as long as the pilot maintains coordinated flight.  I bet Dale has a very hard time getting his RV-8 to do a power on stall at anything less than extreme angles of attack.
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: What Does this mean?
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2009, 01:03:47 AM »
Ultimately, this term is one of the more subjective descriptors among aircraft.  Almost any aircraft with a high power loading can "hang" on its prop, as long as the pilot maintains coordinated flight.

Totally agreed.

The reason I specifically mentioned 109G was that quote from Jeff Ethell and how his imaginary 109 foe "stalled violently" before his P-38. :D Let's just say it made me chuckle just a tad. :rofl I'm quite sure that for pretty much every WWII fighter, the highest sustainable climbing angle is higher than the one producing the optimal climb rate at any given altitude. It's of course true that the benefits that come from the handed engines definately help the P-38 at this type of situations.


Regarding the Bf 109G,

Finnish Air Force test pilot, Pekka Kokko (13 1/3 kills flying Brewsters, not imaginary) described 109G to be able "hang on its prop" with the speed indicator showing speed of 81-87mph (130-140km/h). With power off, 109G stalled at around 106mph in clean configuration.
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